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Showing 60 of 2,096,445 contributions. Latest 30 days: 3,975. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 11 Jun 2026.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
17:18
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
That concludes decision time.17:31The rest of this Official Report will be published progressively as soon as the text is available.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The final question is, that motion S7M-00346, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on committee membership, be agreed to.Motion agreed to,That the Parliament agrees the membership of committees of the Parliament as follows—Climate Action Committ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, is: For 67, Against 25, Abstentions 26.Motion, as amended, agreed to,That the Parliament welcomes that the...
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote has been recorded.
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sorry—I could not connect to the voting app. I would have abstained.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The sixth question is, that motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, is: For 36, Against 67, Abstentions 16.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Baxter, Andrew (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and Wes...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote will be recorded.
Duncan Dunlop (South Scotland) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise—my vote was not recorded. I would have voted yes.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The fifth question is, that amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is: For 26, Against 91, Abstentions 0.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Is...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, is: For 66, Against 27, Abstentions 26.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Barratt, David (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)Beattie, Colin (Midlothi...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, is: For 17, Against 92, Abstentions 9.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Kerr, Thomas (Glasgow) (Reform)Kirkwood, David (South Scotland) (Reform)Langan, Jam...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Malcolm Offord is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser will fall.The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan M...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, is: For 94, Against 15, Abstentions 9.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Okay, thank you.
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
My apologies, Presiding Officer. That was left over from when the app was not working.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
We come to the vote on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee. Members should cast their vote now.The vote is closed.We have a point of order from Lorna Slater.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.17:18Meeting suspended.17:21On resuming—
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There are seven questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The question on the motion will be put at decision time.
Jamie Hepburn SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I hate to disappoint Ivan McKee, but his speech was not the last speech before the world cup. I will also undoubtedly disappoint other members given that we are looking to get out, but I will not take too long.Members will be aware that standing orders require the Parliamentar...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
Go on—why not?
The Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans (Jamie Hepburn) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I will move and speak to the motion, Presiding Officer.
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S7M-00346, on committee membership. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion.17:16
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
That concludes the debate on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does Mr Kerr want to intervene? I will get the time back, so I am happy to take his point. No, he does not. Okay.We have already saved more than £50 million on estates. I thought that it was 12, but we have now, in fact, shut 13 Scottish Government buildings. Murdo Fraser has ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Mr Kerr, you know to try to intervene rather than to attack from a sedentary position.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I think that the confusion is more broad. The Reform manifesto talks about getting rid of all 130 public bodies—or “quangos”, as they call them. However, there is also a recognition from across the Reform benches that those public bodies—whether Police Scotland, the court syst...
Victor Currie (Highlands and Islands) (Reform) Reform Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does the cabinet secretary recall that Max Bannerman’s point on community wind farms was that they do not rely on subsidies? Therefore, it forms no contradiction in Reform policy on our opposition to net zero.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Yes. David Barratt also draws out the important point that the inconsistency in the Reform position is quite apparent. Reform members say in their amendment that we should not be talking about this stuff, and then they go on to talk about it from very different and contradicto...
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
—renewable energy schemes and for community-owned wind. Does the cabinet secretary agree that that is not the kind of reform that we need?
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Hello. It is not a speech within a speech. It is an intervention.
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In moving the Reform amendment, Malcolm Offord stated that the Scottish Government should have no remit on net zero and energy, and he suggested cutting public bodies that are responsible for related areas. In contrast, Max Bannerman noted the value of community wind power in ...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I will take David Barratt’s intervention, and then I will go on to talk about those other contributions.
David Barratt (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In principle, we need stability of funding and to recognise the great work that happens in community organisations, which I see every week in my constituency. That work is absolutely critical, because those organisations are, to a large extent, the front line, and their abilit...
Bob Doris SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I commend the comments on the third sector that we have heard in the chamber this afternoon. I draw the cabinet secretary’s attention to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s report on funding of the third and voluntary sectors, and I highlight the longer-term fun...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
On reflection, I am happy with the extent of the contributions that we have heard this afternoon. As I indicated at the outset, I was keen to hear from members, and that is what has happened for the most part. I will try to pick my way through the mind map that I have in front...
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Before I call the cabinet secretary, I say to members that, if they seek to make an intervention, they should remember to stand up and ask to make an intervention. I notice that buttons are pressed but, sometimes, the speakers do not see who is trying to intervene.17:05
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
We move to the open debate.15:58
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I congratulate Ivan McKee—I will call him super Ivan, given the scale of his task, based on his speech and the vision that he has set out today.From listening to colleagues from across the chamber, I am struck that there is a lot of common ground here, and I think that we need...
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I begin by welcoming the cabinet secretary to his new role and wishing him well. As we have already heard, Mr McKee has been handed what might become the defining task of this Government, which is tackling the £5 billion black hole in Scotland’s finances. As Murdo Fraser has j...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47
Michael Marra Lab Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I point gently to the fact that Alyn Smith’s party had an outright majority in the Parliament for one of those parliamentary sessions, so not having had the numbers is not a foolproof excuse.Alyn Smith will find common ground across different areas. My note of caution to him w...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new role as Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform. I know that he is keen to dispel the notion that he is here as an axe...
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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 02 May 2013

02 May 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Justice System
Chisholm, Malcolm Lab Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV
The debate’s timing is rather unfortunate. The consultation principle has always been central to the Parliament, and it would have been better to wait until all the written responses were available to members. It is particularly unfortunate for someone such as me, as I have no background or experience in the area and I would have much preferred to read the views of those who do.

I was a minister when the community justice authorities were set up, but it is the nature of being a minister to plough one’s own field. I remember that there were debates at that time—similar to those that we are having now—about the tension and the choice between a central system and more local variation. In a way, we are repeating some of the debates that we had then.

I recognise the importance of the policy area. Dealing with the rehabilitation of offenders and stopping reoffending are critical to justice policy. Although I am in no way an expert, I have been inspired by some of the people who work in the area. Margaret Mitchell mentioned Circle, which is an organisation that is based in my constituency. It has remarkable success rates in stopping reoffending, and I will want to listen to what it has to say about that. I have also spoken a couple of times in recent months to the violence reduction unit, which is prioritising such work with offenders, particularly on employability, as a way of cutting down reoffending. There are leaders in the field to whom we will want to listen.

Although there is no agreement about the solutions, there is unanimity about the nature of the problems, and most people agree with what Margaret Mitchell said about the cluttered and fragmented landscape, which was a key theme of the Christie report. Everybody also seems to agree that structures are not the be-all and end-all—that is absolutely right. Equally, some changes to the structures are required, which is why three options are before us.

What are the problems? They have been well described in the Audit Scotland report and the Angiolini report, which both refer to a lack of leadership and accountability and to problems with funding. Some of those problems relate to the short-term nature of the funding, which Margaret Mitchell referred to, but both reports also say that funding is based on activity rather than outcomes. A lot of the funding is based on the historical allocation of funding, and there is the issue that councillors sometimes—understandably—favour their own local authority.

Perhaps the strongest problem is the inconsistency of service. I was particularly struck by the observation in the Audit Scotland report that, because some services in prisons are funded by local authorities, some prisoners get a service while others do not. That is a stark example of localism going too far. Audit Scotland also emphasises the importance of employability and the great variations in the availability of employability services. Another issue is poor access to purposeful activities in prison, which our amendment highlights.

On where we go from here, I agree with the principles that are set out on pages 15 and 16 of the Government’s consultation document. They include the need for strategic direction and leadership; the emphasis on prevention and early intervention; the desirability of having effective local partnerships; the need for strategic commissioning; and, of course, an approach that involves evidence-based policies that are based on an analysis of need. We all agree with those, but where does that lead us to on the options?

All the options have their attractions and disadvantages. Option A would at least avoid structural upheaval, which is often a good principle to follow, as there is an advantage in having a degree of continuity. Option A suggests that, if we have more strategic leadership, give the CJAs strategic commissioning powers and ensure that partners have a statutory duty to be involved, that will improve the present system. Option A should certainly be looked at seriously.

Option C is championed by the Angiolini report. In itself, that is quite a strong recommendation, given that most of the recommendations of that excellent report have been accepted without controversy. Clearly, in championing a single community justice service, option C is a lot more controversial, but the advantages that are highlighted are that the combination of strategic and operational responsibility would provide clearer lines of accountability, more consistency and potentially a greater quality of service. There would also be the potential to roll out models of good practice. There is a lot to recommend that option.

However, we should not forget option B or the good work that is being done at local council level. We also need to look at the arguments for that. It is attractive in principle to have local authorities in the driving seat, although it can be problematic in practice.

In my final minute, I will give an example of good practice that is being carried out by criminal justice services in Edinburgh. Launched in May last year, the break the cycle project takes old and unwanted bikes and renovates them. The bikes are then donated free to community organisations, youth groups, other interested organisations and children. Crucially, the project works with offenders who are on community payback orders as a direct alternative to going to prison. As the City of Edinburgh Council highlights,

“Experience shows that if an offender is carrying out work that they have an interest in, they are more likely to successfully complete the order. Most of the people on these orders are young men under 25, many of whom have an interest in bikes and cycling.”

The council’s criminal justice workers, who have been trained to help in cycle maintenance, are on hand to monitor and help in the process. I highlight that as an example of the good practice and good work that local councils are doing on the ground.

That example also highlights the central importance of job readiness, job opportunities and the employability agenda. Whatever solution we come up with, I hope that employability will be at the centre. For example, for what will be a really good event that will take place over three days at the end of this month, the violence reduction unit is bringing over from America people who work with offenders on helping them to get ready for the jobs market. That should be right at the centre of our agenda, and I certainly hope that I will be able to attend one of those events.

15:43

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-06433, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on redesigning the community justice system.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill) SNP
I know that the mood in the chamber is more sombre than usual, given events and the debate that has just taken place, but I am grateful that members have agr...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Can the cabinet secretary clarify whether, if option B was chosen, consideration would be given to the fact that some local authorities that have areas of ve...
Kenny MacAskill SNP
Those matters will have to be discussed in detail. The funding formula that we use takes account of the additional pressure that many areas face as a result ...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the cabinet secretary’s closing comments. We will take up his offer of further discussion outwith the forum of parliamentary debate.There is genera...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I think that Lewis Macdonald will be aware that, with the new governor at Polmont prison, there is a new culture and determination that the expression “purpo...
Lewis Macdonald Lab
I am grateful for that intervention. I do not doubt for a moment the commitment of many leaders in the Scottish Prison Service to achieving precisely that ch...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome the debate because it gives Parliament the opportunity to examine why the current arrangement for strategic and operational responsibility with reg...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We move to the open debate, with speeches of six minutes. We have a little bit of time in hand for interventions.15:30
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
This week, I had the good fortune to be briefed by Rob Strachan, the chief officer of Lothian and Borders community justice authority. It is important to sta...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
The debate’s timing is rather unfortunate. The consultation principle has always been central to the Parliament, and it would have been better to wait until ...
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) SNP
It is clear that there is a fair degree of agreement across the chamber this afternoon. I associate myself with many of the comments that other members have ...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I acknowledge the speeches from all members thus far and I associate myself with many of the comments that have been made. I welcome the cabinet secretary’s ...
Margaret Mitchell Con
Does Graeme Pearson agree that the meaningful and purposeful activity that he refers to can be delivered in so-called short-term sentences? Putting people in...
Graeme Pearson Lab
Yes. When a prisoner is in custody 24/7, there are always avenues for delivery, if there is the will to deliver, the necessary support, the health interventi...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
Recorded crime is at a 37-year low, and the number of first-time offenders is falling. However, around half of the number who receive a short custodial sent...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
We know that the economic and social cost of offending and reoffending is immense, and we pour so many resources into picking up the pieces. Lives are ruined...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
Perhaps I am the only one—I do not know—but I am pleased to speak in the debate. I take on board what everyone has said, but the more we discuss the communit...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Today’s debate seems premature given that the consultation finished only two days ago and we are awaiting the responses and conclusions. However, like other ...
Sandra White SNP
Perhaps Mary Fee will be able to educate me on the CJAs. She said that various members of CJAs had contacted her. Would she say that the CJAs work differentl...
Mary Fee Lab
I think that CJAs work in broadly the same manner in different local authorities. I am perhaps fortunate in that I was a local authority member before I came...
Christine Grahame SNP
Can I tempt Mary Fee with option D?
Mary Fee Lab
I thank Christine Grahame for her intervention—I will hold my decision on option D for a bit longer, if that is all right.Before the debate, I had the opport...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) SNP
It has been highlighted already that the total economic and social cost of reoffending in Scotland is about £3 billion a year. According to the Audit Scotlan...
Jamie Hepburn (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the debate and, like Sandra White, I am quite happy to speak on an important subject. It is important to get the structure to deliver community jus...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
We move to closing speeches. I call Annabel Goldie, who has six minutes or thereby.16:36
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome both the Scottish Government’s recent consultation and this afternoon’s debate on redesigning the community justice system. That matters not only b...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I reiterate what other members have said about the timing of today’s debate. Two days after the closure of the consultation is perhaps a little too soon to d...
Kenny MacAskill SNP
Did the member not listen when we said quite clearly that the proposal—whether it is A, B or C—would not come into effect until the spring of 2016? Given tha...
Jenny Marra Lab
Fanciful or not, those are not my words but the words of a leader of a community justice authority, and they are a response to the cabinet secretary’s motion...