Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 17 April 2013
17 Apr 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Public Procurement Reform
I thank the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee for giving us this opportunity to debate this important issue today. For many, this issue is not particularly sexy, but I am an anorak when it comes to procurement, and the submissions that we have received show that there are many other folk who take a keen interest in what we are about to embark on with regard to the public procurement bill.
As I said, I am an anorak. Where do I begin? In my previous life as a councillor, I was often told that we could not do certain things because of EU procurement rules. That got to me so much that I decided that I would go on some training to see whether those barriers really existed, and I had the council’s procurement system—PECOS—installed on the computer in my office, so that I could track what was going on. I know that that is beyond anorakishness, but I think that it was important, because I found that a lot of the barriers that were said to be there were not there at all. I discovered that the reason why some folk took the view that they did was down to custom and practice and an aversion to risk. We need to challenge some of the custom and practice that exists around procurement.
Beyond that, we must ensure that folk know what best value and value for money are. Giving evidence to the Local Government and Regeneration Committee on 27 March this year, James Thomson of Scott-Moncrieff said:
“On best value principles, there has been confusion in some of the responses from others. It is not about just going for the lowest-cost option; it is about having regard to economy, efficiency and effectiveness, and delivering continuous improvement and sustainable services.”—[Official Report, Local Government and Regeneration Committee, 27 March 2013; c 1971.]
I agree with his definition.
Page 3 of the Scottish Government’s “Community Benefits in Public Procurement Guidance Note” says:
“The priority for all public procurement is to achieve Value for Money … Value for money does not, however, mean ‘lowest price’. It is defined in the Scottish Public Finance Manual as ‘the optimum combination of whole life cost and quality to meet the end user’s requirement’.”
The mention of “whole life cost” and “the end user’s requirement” makes me think of the story about grandma’s 50-year-old broom. It has done a huge amount of work over its 50-year life and it has had only nine new handles and 11 new brushes. Those are the kind of things that we must think of when we make major decisions on procurement.
The proposed bill will not be a panacea, as Linda Fabiani and Tavish Scott said. We must deal with the situation in the bill and other forthcoming bills in which procurement will play a major role, such as the community empowerment and renewal bill and the health and social care integration bill. Procurement will be at the forefront of those bills, and we need to consider carefully what we do in that regard.
A huge number of the difficulties that we have are the result of a lack of common sense—a severe lack of common sense in some cases.
The Local Government and Regeneration Committee visited Ayr on Monday to hear the views of folks from Ayrshire and Dumfries and Galloway. A huge number of community representatives gave their views in the community engagement session and, beyond that, we had folk giving formal evidence at a meeting in the afternoon. However, some of the best conversations are always had during the breaks and at lunch time.
In those communities and throughout the country, a huge number of community organisations are doing everything possible to better the lives of the folks they live alongside. However, bureaucracies that local authorities, health boards and others have put in place are impeding the small-scale procurement that those organisations are doing.
I will give an example, although I have only one minute left in which to give it. A guy talked about his community group wanting a new wheelbarrow. They had to go around the houses to buy a new wheelbarrow. They had to get three written quotations and give them to the council for the council to decide which wheelbarrow the group could get. However, this guy had the gumption—the common sense—to realise what the wheelbarrow requirement was and where he could get it for the lowest cost.
That kind of nonsense must be dealt with. Although I welcome the bill, it will not be a panacea. I call for a degree of gumption.
15:48
As I said, I am an anorak. Where do I begin? In my previous life as a councillor, I was often told that we could not do certain things because of EU procurement rules. That got to me so much that I decided that I would go on some training to see whether those barriers really existed, and I had the council’s procurement system—PECOS—installed on the computer in my office, so that I could track what was going on. I know that that is beyond anorakishness, but I think that it was important, because I found that a lot of the barriers that were said to be there were not there at all. I discovered that the reason why some folk took the view that they did was down to custom and practice and an aversion to risk. We need to challenge some of the custom and practice that exists around procurement.
Beyond that, we must ensure that folk know what best value and value for money are. Giving evidence to the Local Government and Regeneration Committee on 27 March this year, James Thomson of Scott-Moncrieff said:
“On best value principles, there has been confusion in some of the responses from others. It is not about just going for the lowest-cost option; it is about having regard to economy, efficiency and effectiveness, and delivering continuous improvement and sustainable services.”—[Official Report, Local Government and Regeneration Committee, 27 March 2013; c 1971.]
I agree with his definition.
Page 3 of the Scottish Government’s “Community Benefits in Public Procurement Guidance Note” says:
“The priority for all public procurement is to achieve Value for Money … Value for money does not, however, mean ‘lowest price’. It is defined in the Scottish Public Finance Manual as ‘the optimum combination of whole life cost and quality to meet the end user’s requirement’.”
The mention of “whole life cost” and “the end user’s requirement” makes me think of the story about grandma’s 50-year-old broom. It has done a huge amount of work over its 50-year life and it has had only nine new handles and 11 new brushes. Those are the kind of things that we must think of when we make major decisions on procurement.
The proposed bill will not be a panacea, as Linda Fabiani and Tavish Scott said. We must deal with the situation in the bill and other forthcoming bills in which procurement will play a major role, such as the community empowerment and renewal bill and the health and social care integration bill. Procurement will be at the forefront of those bills, and we need to consider carefully what we do in that regard.
A huge number of the difficulties that we have are the result of a lack of common sense—a severe lack of common sense in some cases.
The Local Government and Regeneration Committee visited Ayr on Monday to hear the views of folks from Ayrshire and Dumfries and Galloway. A huge number of community representatives gave their views in the community engagement session and, beyond that, we had folk giving formal evidence at a meeting in the afternoon. However, some of the best conversations are always had during the breaks and at lunch time.
In those communities and throughout the country, a huge number of community organisations are doing everything possible to better the lives of the folks they live alongside. However, bureaucracies that local authorities, health boards and others have put in place are impeding the small-scale procurement that those organisations are doing.
I will give an example, although I have only one minute left in which to give it. A guy talked about his community group wanting a new wheelbarrow. They had to go around the houses to buy a new wheelbarrow. They had to get three written quotations and give them to the council for the council to decide which wheelbarrow the group could get. However, this guy had the gumption—the common sense—to realise what the wheelbarrow requirement was and where he could get it for the lowest cost.
That kind of nonsense must be dealt with. Although I welcome the bill, it will not be a panacea. I call for a degree of gumption.
15:48
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-06153, in the name of Maureen Watt, on behalf of the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee, on ...
Gordon MacDonald (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
SNP
It is a pleasure to open this debate on public procurement on behalf of the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee. As members know, the Scottish Go...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
We sometimes hear criticism of the EU, for a variety of reasons. Will the member confirm what I think that he just said, which is that the EU gives Scottish ...
Gordon MacDonald
SNP
I agree on that point. The EU-wide framework opens up opportunities for Scottish companies, because the scale of procurement by the public sector across the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We are extraordinarily tight for time today. I call on Nicola Sturgeon, who has up to 10 minutes.14:50
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities (Nicola Sturgeon)
SNP
As Gordon MacDonald has just said, Scottish public bodies spend more than £9 billion of taxpayers’ money every year, so it stands to reason that the decision...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
On a question of timing, does the minister intend to wait until the EU process of reform is further down the line before introducing a bill here, or does she...
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
We hope to introduce the procurement reform bill before the summer recess. We require to give ourselves comfort that what we propose in that bill will be wit...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
I suspect that procurement as a topic for debate may not have set many members’ pulses racing, but I am encouraged to hear that the debate is tightly subscri...
John Mason
SNP
Will Elaine Murray give way on that point?
Elaine Murray
Lab
Sorry, I have only 10 seconds.We should not subsidise low pay in other sectors. I know that my colleague Kezia Dugdale is considering taking forward John Par...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
You must close, please.
Elaine Murray
Lab
Workers’ rights must be respected. The cabinet secretary also made some good points about the use of community benefit clauses.I look forward to the introduc...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
The Conservatives, too, welcome today’s debate, which provides an opportunity to bring forward some ideas.The motion in the name of Maureen Watt states that ...
John Mason
SNP
Does Mary Scanlon accept that one reason why we have limited resources is that we have tied up funds in private finance initiative projects, which have ended...
Mary Scanlon
Con
I am not sure that that was a positive contribution, which I am hoping to make.More recently, we received the report “Improving community planning in Scotlan...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
That is much appreciated. We move to the open debate.15:13
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I am delighted to speak in the debate, and my speech is built on the foundations that were laid by the Christie commission report to which Mary Scanlon has j...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
SNP
I agree that there should be encouragement, but currently, the European Union legislation and a test case—Dirk Rüffert v Land Niedersachsen—show that we cann...
Chic Brodie
SNP
Of course, I agree with the latter point. I will come to the former in a minute.On the living wage and public sector contracts, it is anathema to me that we ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
The member’s keeping to time is much appreciated.15:19
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to debate the proposed procurement reform bill and the wider procurement agenda, which is—I am glad to say—at last being given the ...
Linda Fabiani (East Kilbride) (SNP)
SNP
I thank the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee for holding this debate. It is an excellent idea to ask—as the motion states—for“members’ views o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
Thank you. Before I call John Mason, I just want to say that the building work is not supposed to be taking place while Parliament is sitting, so we are havi...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you for that reassurance, Presiding Officer.I welcome the fact that procurement is on the agenda. Although we all accept that there is definitely room ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We are very tight for time.15:37
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD)
LD
I, too, declare an interest as an honorary fellow of RIAS. I very much agree with Linda Fabiani’s point that the Deputy First Minister’s bill should not be s...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
SNP
I thank the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee for giving us this opportunity to debate this important issue today. For many, this issue is not ...
Anne McTaggart (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
In these tough economic circumstances, it is right that the Parliament takes time to scrutinise how Scotland uses its buying power to promote social and econ...
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
In the interests of fairness, will the member acknowledge that it is not that we do not support legislation for a living wage but that EU legislation does no...