Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 17 April 2013
17 Apr 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Public Procurement Reform
I thank the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee for holding this debate. It is an excellent idea to ask—as the motion states—for
“members’ views on the efficacy of current public procurement processes and on the scope and potential for improvements”.
Procurement is an important issue that warrants much consultation and discussion. The number of submissions that have been forwarded to MSPs since the debate was publicised backs that up, as does the level of discussion across the board whenever the subject is raised.
I do not believe that one bill can—or, indeed, should—be a panacea for all procurement ills, but it can provide a framework and send very strong messages coupled with sensible, innovative and ambitious guidance to those who operate procurement processes.
As I have said before in the chamber, I served as a member of the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland president’s commission on building a better Scotland, and I declare an interest as an honorary fellow of RIAS. The president’s commission focused on the construction industry, and some of its findings very much reflect the need—as I mentioned—to ensure clarity and a degree of uniformity in procurement processes, particularly for services.
Many processes are too time consuming and costly relative to a project’s scale. We have many times in the chamber discussed localism and the idea of keeping work in Scotland wherever possible, but in some cases the costs for the portal are very low, and common sense suggests that we can bring them down further to community level when we are engaging in procurement projects. In my constituency of East Kilbride, we have many companies that could benefit—as could the overall economy—from the ability to make procurement truly local—[Interruption.] It is quite apposite that we are talking about the construction industry. There they are, drilling away outside. It is nice to hear that there is work going on out there.
It is the application of regulations rather than the regulations themselves that can be a problem. The pre-qualification questionnaire is one example: there is sometimes a degree of going completely over the top in relation to questions. If something is already the law, perhaps there can be a presumption of compliance rather than a constant need to restate things.
We also have a risk-averse culture, to which my colleague Chic Brodie referred. Perhaps covering one’s back in our current blame culture would be a more honest way of putting it. There is often a misunderstanding of the regulations, with procurement being run on occasion by people who do not fully understand what is required.
I thank the Deputy First Minister for meeting me and the RIAS recently to discuss some of those issues. The RIAS is a membership organisation for the architectural profession, which has been hard hit by the economic downturn, and which—to my frustration—has over many years not been granted the respect that it is due for the contribution that it makes to our environment, economy and sense of wellbeing. That lack of respect is often manifested in the public procurement process.
In the past 20 to 25 years in particular, there has been a move away from the traditional appointment of architects as heads of design teams, and towards design-and-build initiatives that put large companies in the driving seat, with the potential to drive down quality in the name of cost and returns for shareholders. Very often when a project has been commissioned, the architect has not even met the client, which I find to be a very bizarre state of affairs. I am not convinced that that approach always offers the best value. As I have said before, research has shown that in the construction industry there can be 50 to 60 bidders for a project. Again, that is a waste of money overall.
In addition, there is the competition form of design procurement, of which the most notorious recent example has been the debacle involving Glasgow City Council’s George Square project. There were respected architectural professionals such as David Mackay and Andy MacMillan on the judging panel, and respected practices working up designs for submission, only for the competition to be abandoned. That seemed to me to be a ridiculous state of affairs. It was a waste of time and public money, as well as a waste of time for all the practices that worked so hard.
So, not only do we have bad procurement processes, we have bad pre-procurement. That is not good treatment of a profession that, in the words of Colin Donald in the business section of the Sunday Herald, has the
“potential to lift public spirits while promoting economic growth”
and is an area in which Scotland has shown
“unique, world-class quality over the centuries”.
We should celebrate that more. We should look at our procurement processes in the round and see how we procure all services for the public.
Again, I thank Maureen Watt and her committee for giving me the opportunity to make those points.
“members’ views on the efficacy of current public procurement processes and on the scope and potential for improvements”.
Procurement is an important issue that warrants much consultation and discussion. The number of submissions that have been forwarded to MSPs since the debate was publicised backs that up, as does the level of discussion across the board whenever the subject is raised.
I do not believe that one bill can—or, indeed, should—be a panacea for all procurement ills, but it can provide a framework and send very strong messages coupled with sensible, innovative and ambitious guidance to those who operate procurement processes.
As I have said before in the chamber, I served as a member of the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland president’s commission on building a better Scotland, and I declare an interest as an honorary fellow of RIAS. The president’s commission focused on the construction industry, and some of its findings very much reflect the need—as I mentioned—to ensure clarity and a degree of uniformity in procurement processes, particularly for services.
Many processes are too time consuming and costly relative to a project’s scale. We have many times in the chamber discussed localism and the idea of keeping work in Scotland wherever possible, but in some cases the costs for the portal are very low, and common sense suggests that we can bring them down further to community level when we are engaging in procurement projects. In my constituency of East Kilbride, we have many companies that could benefit—as could the overall economy—from the ability to make procurement truly local—[Interruption.] It is quite apposite that we are talking about the construction industry. There they are, drilling away outside. It is nice to hear that there is work going on out there.
It is the application of regulations rather than the regulations themselves that can be a problem. The pre-qualification questionnaire is one example: there is sometimes a degree of going completely over the top in relation to questions. If something is already the law, perhaps there can be a presumption of compliance rather than a constant need to restate things.
We also have a risk-averse culture, to which my colleague Chic Brodie referred. Perhaps covering one’s back in our current blame culture would be a more honest way of putting it. There is often a misunderstanding of the regulations, with procurement being run on occasion by people who do not fully understand what is required.
I thank the Deputy First Minister for meeting me and the RIAS recently to discuss some of those issues. The RIAS is a membership organisation for the architectural profession, which has been hard hit by the economic downturn, and which—to my frustration—has over many years not been granted the respect that it is due for the contribution that it makes to our environment, economy and sense of wellbeing. That lack of respect is often manifested in the public procurement process.
In the past 20 to 25 years in particular, there has been a move away from the traditional appointment of architects as heads of design teams, and towards design-and-build initiatives that put large companies in the driving seat, with the potential to drive down quality in the name of cost and returns for shareholders. Very often when a project has been commissioned, the architect has not even met the client, which I find to be a very bizarre state of affairs. I am not convinced that that approach always offers the best value. As I have said before, research has shown that in the construction industry there can be 50 to 60 bidders for a project. Again, that is a waste of money overall.
In addition, there is the competition form of design procurement, of which the most notorious recent example has been the debacle involving Glasgow City Council’s George Square project. There were respected architectural professionals such as David Mackay and Andy MacMillan on the judging panel, and respected practices working up designs for submission, only for the competition to be abandoned. That seemed to me to be a ridiculous state of affairs. It was a waste of time and public money, as well as a waste of time for all the practices that worked so hard.
So, not only do we have bad procurement processes, we have bad pre-procurement. That is not good treatment of a profession that, in the words of Colin Donald in the business section of the Sunday Herald, has the
“potential to lift public spirits while promoting economic growth”
and is an area in which Scotland has shown
“unique, world-class quality over the centuries”.
We should celebrate that more. We should look at our procurement processes in the round and see how we procure all services for the public.
Again, I thank Maureen Watt and her committee for giving me the opportunity to make those points.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-06153, in the name of Maureen Watt, on behalf of the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee, on ...
Gordon MacDonald (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
SNP
It is a pleasure to open this debate on public procurement on behalf of the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee. As members know, the Scottish Go...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
We sometimes hear criticism of the EU, for a variety of reasons. Will the member confirm what I think that he just said, which is that the EU gives Scottish ...
Gordon MacDonald
SNP
I agree on that point. The EU-wide framework opens up opportunities for Scottish companies, because the scale of procurement by the public sector across the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We are extraordinarily tight for time today. I call on Nicola Sturgeon, who has up to 10 minutes.14:50
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities (Nicola Sturgeon)
SNP
As Gordon MacDonald has just said, Scottish public bodies spend more than £9 billion of taxpayers’ money every year, so it stands to reason that the decision...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
On a question of timing, does the minister intend to wait until the EU process of reform is further down the line before introducing a bill here, or does she...
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
We hope to introduce the procurement reform bill before the summer recess. We require to give ourselves comfort that what we propose in that bill will be wit...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
I suspect that procurement as a topic for debate may not have set many members’ pulses racing, but I am encouraged to hear that the debate is tightly subscri...
John Mason
SNP
Will Elaine Murray give way on that point?
Elaine Murray
Lab
Sorry, I have only 10 seconds.We should not subsidise low pay in other sectors. I know that my colleague Kezia Dugdale is considering taking forward John Par...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
You must close, please.
Elaine Murray
Lab
Workers’ rights must be respected. The cabinet secretary also made some good points about the use of community benefit clauses.I look forward to the introduc...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
The Conservatives, too, welcome today’s debate, which provides an opportunity to bring forward some ideas.The motion in the name of Maureen Watt states that ...
John Mason
SNP
Does Mary Scanlon accept that one reason why we have limited resources is that we have tied up funds in private finance initiative projects, which have ended...
Mary Scanlon
Con
I am not sure that that was a positive contribution, which I am hoping to make.More recently, we received the report “Improving community planning in Scotlan...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
That is much appreciated. We move to the open debate.15:13
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I am delighted to speak in the debate, and my speech is built on the foundations that were laid by the Christie commission report to which Mary Scanlon has j...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
SNP
I agree that there should be encouragement, but currently, the European Union legislation and a test case—Dirk Rüffert v Land Niedersachsen—show that we cann...
Chic Brodie
SNP
Of course, I agree with the latter point. I will come to the former in a minute.On the living wage and public sector contracts, it is anathema to me that we ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
The member’s keeping to time is much appreciated.15:19
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to debate the proposed procurement reform bill and the wider procurement agenda, which is—I am glad to say—at last being given the ...
Linda Fabiani (East Kilbride) (SNP)
SNP
I thank the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee for holding this debate. It is an excellent idea to ask—as the motion states—for“members’ views o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
Thank you. Before I call John Mason, I just want to say that the building work is not supposed to be taking place while Parliament is sitting, so we are havi...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you for that reassurance, Presiding Officer.I welcome the fact that procurement is on the agenda. Although we all accept that there is definitely room ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We are very tight for time.15:37
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD)
LD
I, too, declare an interest as an honorary fellow of RIAS. I very much agree with Linda Fabiani’s point that the Deputy First Minister’s bill should not be s...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
SNP
I thank the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee for giving us this opportunity to debate this important issue today. For many, this issue is not ...
Anne McTaggart (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
In these tough economic circumstances, it is right that the Parliament takes time to scrutinise how Scotland uses its buying power to promote social and econ...
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
In the interests of fairness, will the member acknowledge that it is not that we do not support legislation for a living wage but that EU legislation does no...