Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 20 March 2013
20 Mar 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Trident
For the benefit of Mr Rennie’s education, I point out that the Scottish National Party’s whole raison d’être is self-determination. It is for individual countries to take their own view on nuclear weapons but we believe that we can set a lead by eliminating such weapons from our country. That is our role.
We will get the chance later to hear from Bill Kidd, who I believe was the only UK parliamentarian to attend earlier this month a major international conference in Oslo on the humanitarian impact of nuclear weapons. He and others will wish to make their own points, but I feel that in debating these issues we must never lose sight of the truly devastating consequences of the use of nuclear weapons. We must be absolutely clear that these are weapons of mass destruction; they are indiscriminate and kill and destroy without grace or favour; and they devastate not just all military targets in their path but all civilians including children, all schools and hospitals, and all livestock and crops.
On this point, at least, I agree with the former UK Secretary of State for Defence Des Browne who, writing in The Telegraph on 5 February, said that
“large-scale use of nuclear weapons ... would be suicidal”
and that
“even a small-scale nuclear exchange ... would affect at least a billion people and usher in colder temperatures than at any time in the past millennium.”
I also highlight the February 2013 report from the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament entitled “If Britain fired Trident—The humanitarian consequences of a nuclear attack by a Trident submarine on Moscow”, which sets out in horrifying detail the devastating humanitarian consequences of a nuclear attack on a large urban area—precisely the type of attack that Trident is designed to deliver. I note in passing that the Conservative amendment seeks to delete any reference in the motion to the devastating impact of nuclear weapons. It is clear that a nuclear attack would have catastrophic humanitarian consequences.
There is also an economic case to make in this argument. I have talked about the human cost of nuclear weapons, which is clearly far and away the most important factor, but there is also an unacceptable financial cost. The UK Government keeps the accounting on Trident confidential, but estimates suggest that running costs amount to around £2 billion per annum, with Scotland’s share estimated at around £163 million per annum or almost £500,000 each and every day. Furthermore, the UK Government’s plan to replace the current Trident fleet is projected to cost around £20 billion to build, with costs running to more than £100 billion over its lifetime. Although it is not due to decide on the plan until 2016, the Ministry of Defence estimates that it will spend around £3 billion for and in advance of that decision. Frankly, it is staggering that the UK Government is preparing to spend massive sums on nuclear weapons while at the same time cutting conventional defence forces and slashing social welfare budgets.
That is not just the view of the Scottish Government. On 22 January this year, Professor Malcolm Chalmers of the Royal United Services Institute said:
“sharp increases in spending on Trident renewal in the early 2020s seem set to mean further years of austerity for conventional equipment plans.”
We will get the chance later to hear from Bill Kidd, who I believe was the only UK parliamentarian to attend earlier this month a major international conference in Oslo on the humanitarian impact of nuclear weapons. He and others will wish to make their own points, but I feel that in debating these issues we must never lose sight of the truly devastating consequences of the use of nuclear weapons. We must be absolutely clear that these are weapons of mass destruction; they are indiscriminate and kill and destroy without grace or favour; and they devastate not just all military targets in their path but all civilians including children, all schools and hospitals, and all livestock and crops.
On this point, at least, I agree with the former UK Secretary of State for Defence Des Browne who, writing in The Telegraph on 5 February, said that
“large-scale use of nuclear weapons ... would be suicidal”
and that
“even a small-scale nuclear exchange ... would affect at least a billion people and usher in colder temperatures than at any time in the past millennium.”
I also highlight the February 2013 report from the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament entitled “If Britain fired Trident—The humanitarian consequences of a nuclear attack by a Trident submarine on Moscow”, which sets out in horrifying detail the devastating humanitarian consequences of a nuclear attack on a large urban area—precisely the type of attack that Trident is designed to deliver. I note in passing that the Conservative amendment seeks to delete any reference in the motion to the devastating impact of nuclear weapons. It is clear that a nuclear attack would have catastrophic humanitarian consequences.
There is also an economic case to make in this argument. I have talked about the human cost of nuclear weapons, which is clearly far and away the most important factor, but there is also an unacceptable financial cost. The UK Government keeps the accounting on Trident confidential, but estimates suggest that running costs amount to around £2 billion per annum, with Scotland’s share estimated at around £163 million per annum or almost £500,000 each and every day. Furthermore, the UK Government’s plan to replace the current Trident fleet is projected to cost around £20 billion to build, with costs running to more than £100 billion over its lifetime. Although it is not due to decide on the plan until 2016, the Ministry of Defence estimates that it will spend around £3 billion for and in advance of that decision. Frankly, it is staggering that the UK Government is preparing to spend massive sums on nuclear weapons while at the same time cutting conventional defence forces and slashing social welfare budgets.
That is not just the view of the Scottish Government. On 22 January this year, Professor Malcolm Chalmers of the Royal United Services Institute said:
“sharp increases in spending on Trident renewal in the early 2020s seem set to mean further years of austerity for conventional equipment plans.”
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-05988, in the name of Keith Brown, on Trident. 14:40
The Minister for Transport and Veterans (Keith Brown)
SNP
In December 1962, the Polaris sales agreement between the United States and United Kingdom Governments was announced. As a result of that agreement, which wa...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
LD
Will the minister give way?
Keith Brown
SNP
If the member will let me get started, I am sure that I will take his intervention later.Some will say that we should not be holding this debate and that suc...
Willie Rennie
LD
Will the minister give way now?
Keith Brown
SNP
Yes.
Willie Rennie
LD
I respect the position of the minister and the Government on unilateral nuclear disarmament. However, is he able to tell me whether, if Scotland goes indepen...
Keith Brown
SNP
For the benefit of Mr Rennie’s education, I point out that the Scottish National Party’s whole raison d’être is self-determination. It is for individual coun...
Ruth Davidson (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
Does the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth speak for the Scottish Government? He suggests in his Swinneyleaks document:“I have...
Keith Brown
SNP
The point that the finance secretary has made is that around £2 billion is currently spent on defence in Scotland and we pay around £3.3 billion, so we could...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Having listened to the minister’s impassioned delivery, I ask him to explain whether he understands what is meant by a deterrent. It is difficult to prove a ...
Keith Brown
SNP
I understand that Annabel Goldie will not take my word for it that nuclear weapons provide no deterrent whatever, but I have just quoted a number of senior m...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP)
SNP
What deterrent were nuclear weapons to General Galtieri when he decided to invade the Falkland Islands?
Keith Brown
SNP
None whatever. General Sir Mike Jackson has recently said that there is no possibility that the UK would be able to retake the Falkland Islands. It no longer...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I am no great fan of Trident, but will the minister explain what evidence he has that the majority of the Scottish population is against nuclear weapons?
Keith Brown
SNP
I could happily spend the rest of the speech giving the member evidence on that, but most recently a poll carried out last week showed that 80 per cent of pe...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
Will the minister give way?
Keith Brown
SNP
I cannot. I have taken a number of interventions and I would like to try and finish in the short time that is left. Nuclear weapon states should also provide...
Ruth Davidson (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
The question is why anyone would rise to advocate the retention or replacement of a nuclear weapons system or platform. The SNP would have you believe that o...
The Minister for Learning, Science and Scotland’s Languages (Dr Alasdair Allan)
SNP
The member talks about global responsibility. Does she feel that the 180 or so countries in the world that do not posses nuclear weapons are acting irrespons...
Ruth Davidson
Con
I think that the UK is the only recognised nuclear power under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty that has a single platform for weapons and a single set o...
Mark McDonald (North East Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member give way?
Ruth Davidson
Con
No, thank you; I was dealing with the member’s colleague. In the assertions and emotion that have come from the SNP on the issue of nuclear weapons down the ...
Mark McDonald
SNP
Will the member give way?
Ruth Davidson
Con
Not at this time. The third key principle is that the UK’s nuclear deterrent supports collective security through NATO for the Euro-Atlantic area. Nuclear de...
Mark McDonald
SNP
Will the member give way?
Ruth Davidson
Con
I will give way in a second.The SNP’s approach to this most serious of subjects, however, is muddled, confused, cynical and posturing. After decades of oppos...
Keith Brown
SNP
Does the member not believe that the real hypocrisy lies in saying that we are responsible enough to have nuclear weapons and other countries are not? Will s...
Ruth Davidson
Con
We want to be rid of nuclear weapons too, and that is why we are using the leverage that we have by reducing our own stockpile to work with other countries a...
Mark McDonald
SNP
Will the member give way?