Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 05 December 2012
05 Dec 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Health Service
Well, ever was it thus. This is depressingly like a debate that I am sure we had within the recent memory of us all. The Labour Party throws everything at the SNP and the SNP throws everything back at Labour—but, were they in reverse positions, they would do exactly the same. I know with every fibre of my being that, if I were sitting where Mr Neil is, both Labour and the SNP would do the same to me. That is because this is a perennial debate about the future of the NHS.
I support Jackie Baillie’s motion, which refers to “financial pressures”. That is not an accusation that the Government is cutting front-line health spending; it is an accusation that the choices that it is making are putting pressures on the NHS. Similarly, I have a certain sympathy with the cabinet secretary. In the previous parliamentary session, the Scottish Conservatives routinely supported the Administration in its decisions, and the way in which it progressed issues, on healthcare. However, we identified concerns that we thought were chickens that would come home to roost—and I believe they now have.
We believed that the preventative agenda was being undermined by the dissolution of the health visiting service and that financial pressures would be added to not by the principle of free prescriptions but by the progression of that policy at the moment when financial pressures were at their height.
In addition, we have pointed out that there is an ageing population crisis that has huge implications for the health service. Collectively, as a Parliament, we need to face up to and address that crisis, because it can only make the situation even more acute in every year that follows. It is no longer a problem for the next generation to deal with; it is a problem the initial stages of which are lapping at the shores of Scotland’s health service today.
It is therefore not a criticism of the NHS or the people within it to ask questions of the way in which the service is conducted today. Nicola Sturgeon and the Government were let down by NHS Lothian in the way that the figures were manipulated. However, the questions that Parliament asked at that point were on what assurances we had that that practice was not going on anywhere else and on what investigations were being undertaken in that regard.
I am not here to apologise for Jackie Baillie—she and I have had, well, almost fisticuffs on occasion—but here is what Joe FitzPatrick and the chairman of NHS Tayside had to say when she raised the issue of manipulation of waiting times in Tayside. The chairman said that he had written to Ms Baillie to insist that the health board’s waiting list data are accurate. Dundee City West MSP Joe FitzPatrick demanded an apology from Ms Baillie and claimed that she had “besmirched” the reputation of staff. He said:
“This is yet another blunder from Ms Baillie, who jumped to the wrong conclusions, hasn’t apologised and continues to leave her comments online.”
An apology is due, not from Ms Baillie but to Ms Baillie for the way in which her concerns were simply and easily dismissed.
The health secretary is not in office to get standing ovations from all concerned, as his predecessor sometimes seemed to enjoy. The health secretary is there to support the NHS and to hold the people who run it to account and ensure that they do their job on behalf of the people of Scotland. If we are to avoid a full-blown crisis, we must accept that there are huge pressures, from the ageing population, the incidence of norovirus that is overwhelming hospital wards, the reduction in the number of nurses, and the consequences of delayed discharge from wards. There is also the issue of the integrity of public confidence in waiting times.
The previous health secretary’s visits to hospitals became famous for the accompanying smell of fresh paint. Alex Neil is a practical man. He has talked about whistleblowing and he has introduced a hotline. He has talked about access to new medicines. He is visiting wards without management being present and listening to what people have to say. This is a moment when practical measures are required from him to address the issues that Scotland’s health service faces.
I will be interested to hear what emerges in the debate, and when I wind up I will say whether the amber warning that Audit Scotland placed in front of Scotland’s NHS is a warning that the Government recognises, acknowledges and is prepared to do something more practical to address than just blast it with rhetoric.
I support Jackie Baillie’s motion, which refers to “financial pressures”. That is not an accusation that the Government is cutting front-line health spending; it is an accusation that the choices that it is making are putting pressures on the NHS. Similarly, I have a certain sympathy with the cabinet secretary. In the previous parliamentary session, the Scottish Conservatives routinely supported the Administration in its decisions, and the way in which it progressed issues, on healthcare. However, we identified concerns that we thought were chickens that would come home to roost—and I believe they now have.
We believed that the preventative agenda was being undermined by the dissolution of the health visiting service and that financial pressures would be added to not by the principle of free prescriptions but by the progression of that policy at the moment when financial pressures were at their height.
In addition, we have pointed out that there is an ageing population crisis that has huge implications for the health service. Collectively, as a Parliament, we need to face up to and address that crisis, because it can only make the situation even more acute in every year that follows. It is no longer a problem for the next generation to deal with; it is a problem the initial stages of which are lapping at the shores of Scotland’s health service today.
It is therefore not a criticism of the NHS or the people within it to ask questions of the way in which the service is conducted today. Nicola Sturgeon and the Government were let down by NHS Lothian in the way that the figures were manipulated. However, the questions that Parliament asked at that point were on what assurances we had that that practice was not going on anywhere else and on what investigations were being undertaken in that regard.
I am not here to apologise for Jackie Baillie—she and I have had, well, almost fisticuffs on occasion—but here is what Joe FitzPatrick and the chairman of NHS Tayside had to say when she raised the issue of manipulation of waiting times in Tayside. The chairman said that he had written to Ms Baillie to insist that the health board’s waiting list data are accurate. Dundee City West MSP Joe FitzPatrick demanded an apology from Ms Baillie and claimed that she had “besmirched” the reputation of staff. He said:
“This is yet another blunder from Ms Baillie, who jumped to the wrong conclusions, hasn’t apologised and continues to leave her comments online.”
An apology is due, not from Ms Baillie but to Ms Baillie for the way in which her concerns were simply and easily dismissed.
The health secretary is not in office to get standing ovations from all concerned, as his predecessor sometimes seemed to enjoy. The health secretary is there to support the NHS and to hold the people who run it to account and ensure that they do their job on behalf of the people of Scotland. If we are to avoid a full-blown crisis, we must accept that there are huge pressures, from the ageing population, the incidence of norovirus that is overwhelming hospital wards, the reduction in the number of nurses, and the consequences of delayed discharge from wards. There is also the issue of the integrity of public confidence in waiting times.
The previous health secretary’s visits to hospitals became famous for the accompanying smell of fresh paint. Alex Neil is a practical man. He has talked about whistleblowing and he has introduced a hotline. He has talked about access to new medicines. He is visiting wards without management being present and listening to what people have to say. This is a moment when practical measures are required from him to address the issues that Scotland’s health service faces.
I will be interested to hear what emerges in the debate, and when I wind up I will say whether the amber warning that Audit Scotland placed in front of Scotland’s NHS is a warning that the Government recognises, acknowledges and is prepared to do something more practical to address than just blast it with rhetoric.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-05088, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on Scotland’s health service.15:49
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to debate Scotland’s health service. We are all—rightly—proud of the national health service and we are all grateful to the dedicat...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I call Alex Neil, who has seven minutes.15:59
The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Alex Neil)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity yet again to put on record my gratitude for the dedication and commitment of NHS staff throughout Scotland and, indeed, my gratitud...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
Alex Neil
SNP
I do not have much time, so I do not have time for interruptions, unfortunately.Let me make it absolutely clear that individual cases that need to be investi...
Jackie Baillie
Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
Alex Neil
SNP
I do not have time, unfortunately.I say to Jackie Baillie and other Labour members that, if we did not have to pay out £184 million for private finance initi...
Neil Findlay
Lab
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I wonder whether you can help. The minister says that he does not have time to take an intervention. He has seven min...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Thank you, but that is not a point of order. It is for members to decide whether to take interventions.
Alex Neil
SNP
I have so many errors to correct and so much to say that the truth is that seven minutes is not nearly enough time.Let us deal with Audit Scotland. In the Au...
Jackie Baillie
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Alex Neil
SNP
I have only just over a minute left.Unlike Labour, we do not have hidden waiting lists. We will not hide behind anyone. If there are problems to be solved, w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I now call on Jackson Carlaw—five minutes, please.16:07
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Well, ever was it thus. This is depressingly like a debate that I am sure we had within the recent memory of us all. The Labour Party throws everything at th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
We move to the open debate, with speeches of four minutes. Time is tight this afternoon.16:12
Aileen McLeod (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I offer my sincere thanks to all the NHS staff who were responsible for delivering what the NHS’s chief executive described in his recently published annual ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You have one minute left.
Aileen McLeod
SNP
It has become clear in recent weeks that the SNP Government stands alone in giving those undertakings. We know that no area of universal entitlement to publi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You must conclude.
Aileen McLeod
SNP
In conclusion, I support the amendment in Alex Neil’s name.16:16
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
In the first eight years of this Parliament, Labour allocated huge increases to health, which enabled the system to recover from the previous round of Tory c...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
The member is in her last minute.
Sarah Boyack
Lab
The problem is not just bed capacity, but insufficient staff in key clinical areas. I could have spent my four minutes just reading out recent press headline...
Mark McDonald (North East Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
We talk a lot about choices during debates in this chamber. Recently, we have heard talk from Labour members—indeed, from the Labour leader—about the need to...
Sarah Boyack
Lab
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
Mark McDonald
SNP
I will happily hear Sarah Boyack’s point in the winding-up speeches—I have only four minutes.We need to know exactly what the Labour Party’s priorities are. ...
Jackie Baillie
Lab
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
Mark McDonald
SNP
I ask Ms Baillie to leave it to the winding-up speeches; as I said, I have only four minutes.
Jackie Baillie
Lab
We need an apology from you.