Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 05 December 2012
05 Dec 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Policing
I entirely agree with what the member says.
There are two points that will not make things easy for the single police force. First, we still do not have a full business case that outlines what savings will be made. During the passage of the bill, the Scottish Government repeatedly said the single force would save £130 million a year and £1.7 billion over 15 years, but those figures were based on an outline business case that was produced in the summer of 2011 and they were never intended to inform the debate on whether the single force would produce the savings. A full business case should have been published before the bill was passed, but instead it has been left to the Police Authority to determine.
Secondly, Scotland’s police forces have a combined outstanding debt of £104 million, which will transfer to the new service in April, meaning that on day 1 the single service will already owe £104 million. It has been suggested that as many as 3,000 civilian posts will be lost in order to balance the police budget. It is right that that is a decision for the single force but, as it represents nearly 50 per cent of the current total, I question whether it is a sustainable prospect.
I disagree with the point in Lewis Macdonald’s motion on the use of the private sector for civilian posts. I am not opposed in principle to the police service using the private sector in certain circumstances. If the private sector can deliver the same services in a cost-effective manner, we should surely welcome that.
I move amendment S4M-05087.1, to leave out from “or” to end and insert:
“and ensure transparency and openness in the financial decision-making process and that such decisions must include the flexibility to establish local solutions for local issues.”
15:01
There are two points that will not make things easy for the single police force. First, we still do not have a full business case that outlines what savings will be made. During the passage of the bill, the Scottish Government repeatedly said the single force would save £130 million a year and £1.7 billion over 15 years, but those figures were based on an outline business case that was produced in the summer of 2011 and they were never intended to inform the debate on whether the single force would produce the savings. A full business case should have been published before the bill was passed, but instead it has been left to the Police Authority to determine.
Secondly, Scotland’s police forces have a combined outstanding debt of £104 million, which will transfer to the new service in April, meaning that on day 1 the single service will already owe £104 million. It has been suggested that as many as 3,000 civilian posts will be lost in order to balance the police budget. It is right that that is a decision for the single force but, as it represents nearly 50 per cent of the current total, I question whether it is a sustainable prospect.
I disagree with the point in Lewis Macdonald’s motion on the use of the private sector for civilian posts. I am not opposed in principle to the police service using the private sector in certain circumstances. If the private sector can deliver the same services in a cost-effective manner, we should surely welcome that.
I move amendment S4M-05087.1, to leave out from “or” to end and insert:
“and ensure transparency and openness in the financial decision-making process and that such decisions must include the flexibility to establish local solutions for local issues.”
15:01
References in this contribution
Motions, questions or amendments mentioned by their reference code.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-05087, in the name of Lewis Macdonald, on policing in Scotland.14:40
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
When the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill went through the Parliament earlier this year, Labour and other parties raised a series of concerns about the...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
This is not breaking news, but the committee has agreed that those opinions would be treated as private. There is a letter to that effect to Vic Emery and th...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
I understand that, and it is clear that the committee is free to determine what to do with that information on the basis of the advice that it has received. ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I call Kenny MacAskill to speak to and move amendment S4M-05087.1. Mr MacAskill, you have seven minutes. 14:49
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I welcome the opportunity to respond to the Labour Party motion and Lewis Macdonald’s opening speech. This debate comes just a ...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Does the cabinet secretary accept that police staff numbers have fallen by more than 900 since March 2010 and that the increase of 65 is only over the past f...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
I get asked such questions regularly by Labour Party members—sometimes by Ms Marra and sometimes by others. I have given a snapshot that shows that at the pr...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
The cabinet secretary talks of predictions, so will he now give us a prediction and say whether he anticipates that trend of increasing staff numbers to cont...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
What we have said—
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Cabinet secretary, I remind you that you have seven minutes and no longer.
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
I will move on then, Presiding Officer.We have made our position clear that officers and staff are performing excellently together. Crime is at a 37-year low...
Margo MacDonald (Lothian) (Ind)
Ind
I thank the cabinet secretary for giving way, given the shortness of time for his speech. Before he moves on to talk about staffing, I want to ask him about ...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Those will be operational matters on which Ms MacDonald will no doubt engage with Mr House or one of his deputes. I have no doubt that they will be happy to ...
John Lamont (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Con
I welcome the opportunity to speak about policing in Scotland and I commend the Scottish Labour Party for using its debating time to focus on this important ...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Does the member accept that it has been made quite clear that the issue is not who controls, because it has been accepted that the line of accountability is ...
John Lamont
Con
The cabinet secretary has perhaps articulated more clearly than was expected the difficulties that will arise when the job cuts come. We should be under no i...
Jenny Marra
Lab
Does the member agree that the points of contention on HR and finance that the cabinet secretary outlined today are the same points of contention that the Ju...
John Lamont
Con
I entirely agree with what the member says.There are two points that will not make things easy for the single police force. First, we still do not have a ful...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
I, too, welcome today’s debate on policing in Scotland. As the cabinet secretary has pointed out in both his speech and the Government’s amendment, it comes ...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
I acknowledge that many areas appear to have been resolved, but will Sandra White confirm that she said in committee that she did not accept the argument tha...
Sandra White
SNP
The issue might be the language that has been used by some, such as “dispute”. We needed clarification, but I believe that the cabinet secretary has clarifie...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
The cabinet secretary will remember that I first went to see him in December last year; John Finnie invited me to do so and Christine Grahame encouraged me. ...
Margo MacDonald
Ind
Can Graeme Pearson tell me what the clear notion in the legislation is on who fires and who hires? We have had mad and bad in that position before.
Graeme Pearson
Lab
Margo MacDonald makes a good point, which I will come to at the end of my speech.On 27 November, the Justice Committee brought back the chief constable and t...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
I will deal briefly with three issues: first, the job losses or backfilling; secondly, the relationship between Emery and House—they could be a good double a...
Jenny Marra
Lab
Will the member give way?
Christine Grahame
SNP
I am sorry, but I do not have time. This is a short debate.The fact is that the single police force in Scotland is envied in England and Wales—members should...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
I thank the Labour Party for bringing the debate to the Parliament this afternoon. The police reforms are at a crucial stage and it is right that we seek to ...
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
SNP
I have read the Labour Party motion and I have just a hint of a feeling that it is a wee bit premature.I asked the new chief constable and the chair of the S...