Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 05 December 2012
05 Dec 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Policing
Those will be operational matters on which Ms MacDonald will no doubt engage with Mr House or one of his deputes. I have no doubt that they will be happy to engage on that and discuss it with her.
In Steve House and Vic Emery, we have excellent leaders. Steve brings strong leadership, unrivalled experience and a reputation for successful delivery; and Vic brings extensive expertise from business and wider public sector governance. They are now supported by a strong board and four excellent deputy chief constables, with assistant chief constables expected to be appointed before Christmas.
On governance, the 2012 act is clear: the chief constable has direction and control of the police service, and the SPA is responsible for holding him or her to account for the delivery of policing. The SPA and the chief constable are moving towards agreement—indeed, they are meeting again as we speak. In a letter to me yesterday, which I have lodged in the Scottish Parliament information centre—reference 54549—the chair confirmed that discussions have been “fruitful and progressive”.
It is for the SPA and the chief constable to determine how best to fulfil their responsibilities, and it would be inappropriate for the Parliament or the Government to tell them how to do that. There is no simple formula that determines who should do what, but it has never been the case that the chief constable wanted to control everything or that the SPA wanted to control police functions. The dialogue is about how the SPA can fulfil its responsibility to hold the service to account effectively, while giving the chief constable a coherent and effective set of responsibilities to deliver policing.
There is no remaining contention about what the legislation says about the respective roles. The chief constable and the SPA have reached agreement on the responsibility for all functions apart from human resources and finance, and they have agreed that the chief constable will be responsible for HR and finance delivery, so we are 95 per cent of the way there. The remaining point of discussion is on the reporting lines for the head of HR and finance. That will be the focus of today’s meeting.
I and my officials have been taking a close interest in the issue, as members would expect. We have been involved in a number of informal discussions that involved the chief constable and the chair. I repeat that it is for the chief constable and the chair to determine how best to fulfil their responsibilities.
At the Justice Committee, Her Majesty’s inspector of constabulary for Scotland, Andrew Laing, said:
“what we are going through at the moment is healthy and necessary.”
He went on to say:
“we are getting closer to a well-balanced system”.—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 27 November 2012; c 2112-3.]
I reject the Labour Party motion. Our amendment celebrates the success of policing in Scotland. I urge Mr Macdonald to have more faith in two men of outstanding calibre, who have been appointed, correctly, to positions that I think that they will cherish and in which they will deliver.
I move amendment S4M-05087.2, to leave out from “the view” to end and insert:
“that the Chief Constable has direction and control of the Police Service of Scotland and is responsible for its day to day administration; welcomes the Scottish Government’s commitment to providing 1,000 extra police officers in Scotland’s communities, with a total of 17,454 officers on 30 September 2012, an increase of 1,220 on the 2007 figure; welcomes the contribution provided by 6,955 police staff, an increase of 65 over the last quarter; notes that crime is at a 37-year low and public confidence is high; notes that the overall number of firearms offences in Scotland has more than halved since 2006-07, with a decrease of 21% in the number of firearms offences recorded between 2010-11 and 2011-12, and recognises that this is testament to the hard work of police officers and staff working in policing in Scotland.”
14:56
In Steve House and Vic Emery, we have excellent leaders. Steve brings strong leadership, unrivalled experience and a reputation for successful delivery; and Vic brings extensive expertise from business and wider public sector governance. They are now supported by a strong board and four excellent deputy chief constables, with assistant chief constables expected to be appointed before Christmas.
On governance, the 2012 act is clear: the chief constable has direction and control of the police service, and the SPA is responsible for holding him or her to account for the delivery of policing. The SPA and the chief constable are moving towards agreement—indeed, they are meeting again as we speak. In a letter to me yesterday, which I have lodged in the Scottish Parliament information centre—reference 54549—the chair confirmed that discussions have been “fruitful and progressive”.
It is for the SPA and the chief constable to determine how best to fulfil their responsibilities, and it would be inappropriate for the Parliament or the Government to tell them how to do that. There is no simple formula that determines who should do what, but it has never been the case that the chief constable wanted to control everything or that the SPA wanted to control police functions. The dialogue is about how the SPA can fulfil its responsibility to hold the service to account effectively, while giving the chief constable a coherent and effective set of responsibilities to deliver policing.
There is no remaining contention about what the legislation says about the respective roles. The chief constable and the SPA have reached agreement on the responsibility for all functions apart from human resources and finance, and they have agreed that the chief constable will be responsible for HR and finance delivery, so we are 95 per cent of the way there. The remaining point of discussion is on the reporting lines for the head of HR and finance. That will be the focus of today’s meeting.
I and my officials have been taking a close interest in the issue, as members would expect. We have been involved in a number of informal discussions that involved the chief constable and the chair. I repeat that it is for the chief constable and the chair to determine how best to fulfil their responsibilities.
At the Justice Committee, Her Majesty’s inspector of constabulary for Scotland, Andrew Laing, said:
“what we are going through at the moment is healthy and necessary.”
He went on to say:
“we are getting closer to a well-balanced system”.—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 27 November 2012; c 2112-3.]
I reject the Labour Party motion. Our amendment celebrates the success of policing in Scotland. I urge Mr Macdonald to have more faith in two men of outstanding calibre, who have been appointed, correctly, to positions that I think that they will cherish and in which they will deliver.
I move amendment S4M-05087.2, to leave out from “the view” to end and insert:
“that the Chief Constable has direction and control of the Police Service of Scotland and is responsible for its day to day administration; welcomes the Scottish Government’s commitment to providing 1,000 extra police officers in Scotland’s communities, with a total of 17,454 officers on 30 September 2012, an increase of 1,220 on the 2007 figure; welcomes the contribution provided by 6,955 police staff, an increase of 65 over the last quarter; notes that crime is at a 37-year low and public confidence is high; notes that the overall number of firearms offences in Scotland has more than halved since 2006-07, with a decrease of 21% in the number of firearms offences recorded between 2010-11 and 2011-12, and recognises that this is testament to the hard work of police officers and staff working in policing in Scotland.”
14:56
References in this contribution
Motions, questions or amendments mentioned by their reference code.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-05087, in the name of Lewis Macdonald, on policing in Scotland.14:40
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
When the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill went through the Parliament earlier this year, Labour and other parties raised a series of concerns about the...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
This is not breaking news, but the committee has agreed that those opinions would be treated as private. There is a letter to that effect to Vic Emery and th...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
I understand that, and it is clear that the committee is free to determine what to do with that information on the basis of the advice that it has received. ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I call Kenny MacAskill to speak to and move amendment S4M-05087.1. Mr MacAskill, you have seven minutes. 14:49
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I welcome the opportunity to respond to the Labour Party motion and Lewis Macdonald’s opening speech. This debate comes just a ...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Does the cabinet secretary accept that police staff numbers have fallen by more than 900 since March 2010 and that the increase of 65 is only over the past f...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
I get asked such questions regularly by Labour Party members—sometimes by Ms Marra and sometimes by others. I have given a snapshot that shows that at the pr...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
The cabinet secretary talks of predictions, so will he now give us a prediction and say whether he anticipates that trend of increasing staff numbers to cont...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
What we have said—
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Cabinet secretary, I remind you that you have seven minutes and no longer.
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
I will move on then, Presiding Officer.We have made our position clear that officers and staff are performing excellently together. Crime is at a 37-year low...
Margo MacDonald (Lothian) (Ind)
Ind
I thank the cabinet secretary for giving way, given the shortness of time for his speech. Before he moves on to talk about staffing, I want to ask him about ...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Those will be operational matters on which Ms MacDonald will no doubt engage with Mr House or one of his deputes. I have no doubt that they will be happy to ...
John Lamont (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Con
I welcome the opportunity to speak about policing in Scotland and I commend the Scottish Labour Party for using its debating time to focus on this important ...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Does the member accept that it has been made quite clear that the issue is not who controls, because it has been accepted that the line of accountability is ...
John Lamont
Con
The cabinet secretary has perhaps articulated more clearly than was expected the difficulties that will arise when the job cuts come. We should be under no i...
Jenny Marra
Lab
Does the member agree that the points of contention on HR and finance that the cabinet secretary outlined today are the same points of contention that the Ju...
John Lamont
Con
I entirely agree with what the member says.There are two points that will not make things easy for the single police force. First, we still do not have a ful...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
I, too, welcome today’s debate on policing in Scotland. As the cabinet secretary has pointed out in both his speech and the Government’s amendment, it comes ...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
I acknowledge that many areas appear to have been resolved, but will Sandra White confirm that she said in committee that she did not accept the argument tha...
Sandra White
SNP
The issue might be the language that has been used by some, such as “dispute”. We needed clarification, but I believe that the cabinet secretary has clarifie...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
The cabinet secretary will remember that I first went to see him in December last year; John Finnie invited me to do so and Christine Grahame encouraged me. ...
Margo MacDonald
Ind
Can Graeme Pearson tell me what the clear notion in the legislation is on who fires and who hires? We have had mad and bad in that position before.
Graeme Pearson
Lab
Margo MacDonald makes a good point, which I will come to at the end of my speech.On 27 November, the Justice Committee brought back the chief constable and t...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
I will deal briefly with three issues: first, the job losses or backfilling; secondly, the relationship between Emery and House—they could be a good double a...
Jenny Marra
Lab
Will the member give way?
Christine Grahame
SNP
I am sorry, but I do not have time. This is a short debate.The fact is that the single police force in Scotland is envied in England and Wales—members should...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
I thank the Labour Party for bringing the debate to the Parliament this afternoon. The police reforms are at a crucial stage and it is right that we seek to ...
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
SNP
I have read the Labour Party motion and I have just a hint of a feeling that it is a wee bit premature.I asked the new chief constable and the chair of the S...