Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 11 December 2012
11 Dec 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Role of Science in Public Policy
I do not want to depart into a debate about climate science. I was simply making the point gently—although I seem to have hit a raw nerve with Mr Harvie in doing so—that the strong scientific consensus in the 1970s was that we were heading for another ice age. I refer him to the scientific articles, which I can produce for him if he wishes, that said that at the time. We should always be wary when a scientific consensus is claimed and we should always challenge and debate such matters.
I will raise a couple of issues on which we could do with a bit more science in the debate, despite what we have heard from the Scottish Government about scientific evidence and advice. The first issue is genetically modified crops. It is widely believed throughout the world and the scientific community that such technology offers great opportunities and has the ability to feed the world’s growing population. If any member has not had the opportunity to do so, I strongly recommend that they visit the excellent James Hutton Institute in Invergowrie, which is doing world-leading research in the subject but which is held back by the Scottish Government’s approach, which does not permit the institute to do field trials of GM crops.
I understand the pressure that Governments are under and I understand that the public are concerned, that there is a lot of pseudo-science out there on the internet and that there are concerns about tabloid headlines that refer to Frankenstein foods. I simply say to the Scottish Government that it should have more courage and listen to people such as Anne Glover, the former chief scientific adviser to the Scottish Government and the current chief scientific adviser to the European Union, who said just this year:
“There is no substantiated case of any adverse impact on human health, animal health or environmental health, so that’s pretty robust evidence, and I would be confident in saying that there is no more risk in eating GMO food than eating conventionally farmed food”.
I am sure that members will recognise that the strong belief among scientists is that we should not close the door on GM crops. The Scottish Government should listen to that scientific advice.
The second issue is energy policy. The Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee has just done an extensive inquiry into renewable energy. In the breadth of the evidence that the committee took, it was interesting to note how the weight of the scientific and technical evidence was sceptical about the overfocus on intermittent forms of energy, particularly onshore wind.
When we looked at the evidence from bodies such as the Institution of Engineering and Technology, which sent the committee a joint submission from Sir Donald Miller, the former chair of Scottish Power, and Colin Gibson, the former power networks director of National Grid, we saw that they all expressed the same concerns.
On the other side of the debate, we received evidence from lobbyists such as WWF, Friends of the Earth and Scottish Renewables, which all said that there was no problem. We should listen to the scientists and the experts, not the lobbyists, and we will get better policy as a result.
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for indicating his support for my amendment. Education is vital: no matter how good our scientific advice is today, we need to ensure that we train the next generation of scientists so that they can continue to provide the necessary advice.
There are skills gaps in that regard. Any member of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee will be aware, from the evidence that is regularly presented to us, that there is a concern—particularly in areas such as engineering and science—that the flow of new entrants to the industry is not sufficient, which is an issue that Neil Findlay addressed in his speech.
There is a problem at college level with cuts in STEM courses. According to a parliamentary written answer that I received just a few weeks ago, there has been a 41 per cent decline in the number of places in science and mathematics at further education colleges since 2008-09. That is not surprising at a time of squeezed college budgets, which I will not go into today as we have discussed that enough in the past few weeks.
However, when colleges are under financial pressure, it is easy for them to make cuts in the courses that are expensive to deliver and labour intensive, and which require a lot of space. Those courses will be in science, technology and engineering, as it is much cheaper to deliver courses in a lecture theatre where a lot of students can be packed in. We need to be careful about that and ensure that those college courses are available. We also need better careers guidance—
I will raise a couple of issues on which we could do with a bit more science in the debate, despite what we have heard from the Scottish Government about scientific evidence and advice. The first issue is genetically modified crops. It is widely believed throughout the world and the scientific community that such technology offers great opportunities and has the ability to feed the world’s growing population. If any member has not had the opportunity to do so, I strongly recommend that they visit the excellent James Hutton Institute in Invergowrie, which is doing world-leading research in the subject but which is held back by the Scottish Government’s approach, which does not permit the institute to do field trials of GM crops.
I understand the pressure that Governments are under and I understand that the public are concerned, that there is a lot of pseudo-science out there on the internet and that there are concerns about tabloid headlines that refer to Frankenstein foods. I simply say to the Scottish Government that it should have more courage and listen to people such as Anne Glover, the former chief scientific adviser to the Scottish Government and the current chief scientific adviser to the European Union, who said just this year:
“There is no substantiated case of any adverse impact on human health, animal health or environmental health, so that’s pretty robust evidence, and I would be confident in saying that there is no more risk in eating GMO food than eating conventionally farmed food”.
I am sure that members will recognise that the strong belief among scientists is that we should not close the door on GM crops. The Scottish Government should listen to that scientific advice.
The second issue is energy policy. The Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee has just done an extensive inquiry into renewable energy. In the breadth of the evidence that the committee took, it was interesting to note how the weight of the scientific and technical evidence was sceptical about the overfocus on intermittent forms of energy, particularly onshore wind.
When we looked at the evidence from bodies such as the Institution of Engineering and Technology, which sent the committee a joint submission from Sir Donald Miller, the former chair of Scottish Power, and Colin Gibson, the former power networks director of National Grid, we saw that they all expressed the same concerns.
On the other side of the debate, we received evidence from lobbyists such as WWF, Friends of the Earth and Scottish Renewables, which all said that there was no problem. We should listen to the scientists and the experts, not the lobbyists, and we will get better policy as a result.
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for indicating his support for my amendment. Education is vital: no matter how good our scientific advice is today, we need to ensure that we train the next generation of scientists so that they can continue to provide the necessary advice.
There are skills gaps in that regard. Any member of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee will be aware, from the evidence that is regularly presented to us, that there is a concern—particularly in areas such as engineering and science—that the flow of new entrants to the industry is not sufficient, which is an issue that Neil Findlay addressed in his speech.
There is a problem at college level with cuts in STEM courses. According to a parliamentary written answer that I received just a few weeks ago, there has been a 41 per cent decline in the number of places in science and mathematics at further education colleges since 2008-09. That is not surprising at a time of squeezed college budgets, which I will not go into today as we have discussed that enough in the past few weeks.
However, when colleges are under financial pressure, it is easy for them to make cuts in the courses that are expensive to deliver and labour intensive, and which require a lot of space. Those courses will be in science, technology and engineering, as it is much cheaper to deliver courses in a lecture theatre where a lot of students can be packed in. We need to be careful about that and ensure that those college courses are available. We also need better careers guidance—
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-05154, in the name of Alasdair Allan, on the role of scientific evidence in advice on public policy. Mich...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell)
SNP
My speaking notes start with the following observation:“We all make decisions every day. Those decisions are based on what we know and what we think we know....
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
I ask the cabinet secretary to confirm that the meeting that he and I were supposed to be having at this very minute is, therefore, postponed.
Michael Russell
SNP
I am happy to say that it is not postponed and the member is now late for it. My officials are leading that meeting and, with the permission of the chamber, ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
I certainly agree with all that the cabinet secretary said about Marine Scotland and scientific advice. However, I point out the danger that, sometimes, ther...
Michael Russell
SNP
I very much agree with Liam McArthur. As the environment minister, I dealt with aspects of the fisheries portfolio, and he puts his finger on a key issue: al...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I entirely agree with the cabinet secretary, but the response to the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine demonstrated a divergence between public opinion, whi...
Michael Russell
SNP
The member makes an important point. I was just about to talk about the sciencewise expert resource centre for public dialogue in science and innovation, whi...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Not me.
Michael Russell
SNP
It was not Mr Findlay, apparently. He is unable to decide whose evidence he can support: mine or that which is still to come from Dr Allan. I am sure that Mr...
Michael Russell
SNP
The objections from Labour members to support for the Tory amendment are quite extraordinary. The evidence base shows that they always support the Tory party...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Thank you, cabinet secretary. I think that we are all very pleased to see Dr Allan.I call Neil Findlay to speak to and move amendment S4M-05154.2. Mr Findlay...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome Dr Allan, who has just parachuted in from afar.Science plays a vital role in influencing all that we do as a society and a central part in supporti...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
I wonder why Mr Findlay did not include in that list Mary Fairfax Somerville, after whom committee room 2 is named. She was a well-known female Scottish scie...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I thank the member for that intervention. What do you have to say, Mr Findlay?
Neil Findlay
Lab
I thank Dr Murray for that question—I believe that she was a scientist herself. However, I was referring to the list of the top 10 members of the Scottish sc...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I strongly agree with the member’s point about the need to attract and retain women in STEM subjects, but I am curious about why, in neither his amendment no...
Neil Findlay
Lab
I will come on to that. The issue has a critical role to play because if we take only or largely a male perspective on policy, our policy process is much the...
The Minister for Learning, Science and Scotland’s Languages (Dr Alasdair Allan)
SNP
Does the member acknowledge that the benefit that Scotland reaps in research funding is due not to any act of charity but to the excellence of Scottish insti...
Neil Findlay
Lab
Absolutely. We recognise that and hope that that will continue. However, these are legitimate questions to ask.A recent Universities Scotland briefing paper ...
Dr Simpson
Lab
The member may wish to note that the Wellcome Trust stopped paying for research—at 100 per cent—in Ireland after it became independent.The other point that n...
Neil Findlay
Lab
As always, Dr Simpson adds weight to the debate. I am sure that I do not need to add anything further. Those doubts were raised by one of the UK’s most respe...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I very much welcome this debate on the role of scientific evidence and advice in public policy, and I welcome the minister to his place. I am sorry that the ...
Patrick Harvie
Green
I am sure that the member is aware that the basic mechanism of the greenhouse gas has been identified for more than 150 years. There has been no lack of cons...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I do not want to depart into a debate about climate science. I was simply making the point gently—although I seem to have hit a raw nerve with Mr Harvie in d...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The member must close now.
Murdo Fraser
Con
Too often, the committee heard the message that youngsters are not getting proper advice about the opportunities that are available in new industries and in ...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP)
SNP
My dad was an armature winder and engineer. He repaired the electric motors in generators and was a proud tradesman who had learned his trade on a very pract...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Scotland should certainly aspire to science-based policy making, especially given our historical record in science, whether we mean Hutton working out the ag...
Patrick Harvie
Green
Iain Gray mentioned genetic modification. Rightly, my party is willing to be faced with questions if we assert something that is not scientifically valid. Ho...