Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 14 June 2012
14 Jun 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Women’s Representation (Public Sector Boards)
I welcome the debate and agree that the lack of women’s representation at the highest level of public life—and in private industry—is a concern that everyone in the chamber should have and that all our society should share.
Our demographic profile in Scotland is such that women live longer on average than men. If our women pensioners have been less well paid throughout their careers and unable to progress as easily as their male counterparts for whatever reason—and I am sure that many of those barriers will be examined today—our society is storing a problem of pensioner poverty for women.
I am a member of the British Computer Society and I had a 20-year career in information technology before entering politics full time in 2007. I realise that that makes me one of the women who have chosen to leave that profession. However, I remain passionate about encouraging young women into rewarding careers in IT and in science, technology, engineering and mathematics—STEM subjects.
IT is a relatively new industry, and one might expect that the problems that exist in older, more traditional sectors, public bodies, and industries such as medicine, engineering and banking might not be so prevalent in IT. However, in 2008 the British Computer Society published a report, “Women in IT Scorecard”, which mapped gender imbalance in the IT workforce. It had some startling findings. Although women represent 45 per cent of the United Kingdom working population, in the IT sector women represent only 19 per cent. The representation of women in the IT sector in the UK is only two thirds that of Italy or Ireland. The report also shows that women coming into the profession outperform their male counterparts academically—as alluded to by Annabel Goldie—yet their career paths do not reflect that starting base.
Most significantly, the BCS report showed that the pay gap in IT answers many of the questions about why women leave or fail to seek advancement. The pay gap for 16 to 29-year-olds was a staggering 14 per cent, and it was shown that that gap starts from virtually day one of employment. However, by the time people get to ages 40 to 49—a point at which the board room is perhaps a natural progression for people in the profession—the pay gap between men and women is 30 per cent.
That is why I have much sympathy with the concerns and serious issues that the Labour motion raises. However, I do not believe that the problem can be tackled from the boardroom down. It is far more fundamental and must involve us all embracing a cultural change in our society. That has been identified in the Royal Society of Edinburgh report, “Tapping all our talents”, which is an investigation into women in science, technology, engineering and mathematics that looks for a strategy for Scotland. The report shows that the loss of talent of women in STEM subjects is mainly due to cultural factors. In paragraph 6 it states that change will
“require a major cultural change in attitude and approach.”
That is why I do not believe that quotas will be the answer. We need to achieve a much more fundamental change in our society.
Our demographic profile in Scotland is such that women live longer on average than men. If our women pensioners have been less well paid throughout their careers and unable to progress as easily as their male counterparts for whatever reason—and I am sure that many of those barriers will be examined today—our society is storing a problem of pensioner poverty for women.
I am a member of the British Computer Society and I had a 20-year career in information technology before entering politics full time in 2007. I realise that that makes me one of the women who have chosen to leave that profession. However, I remain passionate about encouraging young women into rewarding careers in IT and in science, technology, engineering and mathematics—STEM subjects.
IT is a relatively new industry, and one might expect that the problems that exist in older, more traditional sectors, public bodies, and industries such as medicine, engineering and banking might not be so prevalent in IT. However, in 2008 the British Computer Society published a report, “Women in IT Scorecard”, which mapped gender imbalance in the IT workforce. It had some startling findings. Although women represent 45 per cent of the United Kingdom working population, in the IT sector women represent only 19 per cent. The representation of women in the IT sector in the UK is only two thirds that of Italy or Ireland. The report also shows that women coming into the profession outperform their male counterparts academically—as alluded to by Annabel Goldie—yet their career paths do not reflect that starting base.
Most significantly, the BCS report showed that the pay gap in IT answers many of the questions about why women leave or fail to seek advancement. The pay gap for 16 to 29-year-olds was a staggering 14 per cent, and it was shown that that gap starts from virtually day one of employment. However, by the time people get to ages 40 to 49—a point at which the board room is perhaps a natural progression for people in the profession—the pay gap between men and women is 30 per cent.
That is why I have much sympathy with the concerns and serious issues that the Labour motion raises. However, I do not believe that the problem can be tackled from the boardroom down. It is far more fundamental and must involve us all embracing a cultural change in our society. That has been identified in the Royal Society of Edinburgh report, “Tapping all our talents”, which is an investigation into women in science, technology, engineering and mathematics that looks for a strategy for Scotland. The report shows that the loss of talent of women in STEM subjects is mainly due to cultural factors. In paragraph 6 it states that change will
“require a major cultural change in attitude and approach.”
That is why I do not believe that quotas will be the answer. We need to achieve a much more fundamental change in our society.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The first item of business is a debate on motion S4M-03289, in the name of Jenny Marra, on women’s representation.09:15
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I am delighted to be able to open a debate on equality in the Scottish Parliament in this, the United Nations year of empowering women. I note that this appe...
Humza Yousaf (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
Why, in the 13 years when it was in power, did the Labour Government not bring in a 40 per cent quota for public sector bodies?
Jenny Marra
Lab
We have always supported equal representation in our party and it is something that we will look towards in the future. We have been out of power for quite a...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jenny Marra
Lab
No, thank you. No amount of application information to highly skilled and qualified women through Government DVDs, brochures and e-mailed vacancies are chang...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Can the member indicate how the appointments to the current police boards are made? My understanding is that the majority of the appointments come from local...
Jenny Marra
Lab
I think that the member will find, if he looks at gender representation among councillors in Scotland, that Labour has a much better record of electing women...
Christine Grahame
SNP
The member is concerned about gender balance and interventions. However, does she agree that the Justice Committee took the view that it is quality on the bo...
Jenny Marra
Lab
If the member had been listening to my speech, she would have found that I have already made the case that a quota enforces the idea of a meritocracy and tha...
The Minister for Commonwealth Games and Sport (Shona Robison)
SNP
I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Scottish Government in this timely debate. I say that it is timely because, as every member ...
Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
I find it very sad that the minister cannot recognise that we have passion for equality. I wish that her party could show the same passion for the issue.
Shona Robison
SNP
A person can be passionate about an issue without having to resort to the petty party-political attacks that we saw Jenny Marra making. If Jenny Marra and th...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Will the minister give way?
Shona Robison
SNP
In a minute.There has been good progress in relation to public appointments over the years, but it is not enough. Our public bodies need board members who re...
Neil Findlay
Lab
The minister’s party regularly points to Scandinavia and to the Norwegian and Finnish Governments. Are those Governments patronising, too?
Shona Robison
SNP
I did not say that. Perhaps the member should have listened. It is refreshing that the Labour Party has stopped denigrating small independent countries and h...
Jenny Marra
Lab
Does the minister acknowledge that this is perhaps the first time that a quota has been proposed in this context? She says that there is no consensus out the...
Shona Robison
SNP
I could not agree more with the member. That is the tone that she should have taken from the start of the debate, because I am happy to work with her and oth...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I shall try not to be provocative or patronising and I shall do my level best to be passionate. I thank Jenny Marra for bringing this important issue to the ...
Dennis Robertson (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Annabel Goldie
Con
I am very tight for time. Will the member forgive me if I try to use my five minutes as best I can?Although I certainly broadly sympathise with the thrust of...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
We now move to open debate. Time is extremely tight and the Presiding Officers will struggle to get into the debate everybody who wants to speak, so we will ...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the debate and agree that the lack of women’s representation at the highest level of public life—and in private industry—is a concern that everyone...
Jenny Marra
Lab
Will the member give way?
The Presiding Officer
NPA
The member does not have time.
Clare Adamson
SNP
I am in my last few minutes. A European Commission report, “Women in economic decision-making in the EU”, looks at improved company performance evidenced by ...
John Park (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate. We have had several interesting speeches, particularly from Jenny Marra, who mentioned the international as...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
I agreed with much of what John Park said, but Kezia Dugdale and Jenny Marra have quality—they are here not because they are women, but because they are good...
John Park
Lab
May I clarify my point?