Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 29 March 2012
29 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tribunal System
I thank Christine Grahame very much indeed.
We all use information technology in our workplaces, but the issue is getting the information out to the 80,000 users of tribunals as they embark on the process of a tribunal appeal, which can be daunting and intimidating. For many, the first port of call is a website, and there is no doubt that it is helpful to the user if the website provides concise instructions on the process.
A number of issues need to be considered and members have spoken about many of them during the debate. One is the lack of a consistent appeal route. The right of appeal is an important judicial principle, but there is no appeal whatsoever with some tribunals. As Nigel Don said, if a tribunal knows that it will not be subject to further scrutiny on appeal, that could lead to a somewhat lax approach when it considers the decision at hand. The appeal route needs to be tidied up so that people know that there is consistency.
We must also ensure that the appointments process is open and transparent. As many members have said, decisions taken at tribunals can have quite an impact on people’s lives. Those who sit on tribunals therefore have a great responsibility and we need to ensure that the people who are appointed treat their positions properly and are appropriately qualified.
We also want to know that there is appropriate independence. [Interruption.] I have some other points that I would like to make, Presiding Officer, if that is okay.
We all use information technology in our workplaces, but the issue is getting the information out to the 80,000 users of tribunals as they embark on the process of a tribunal appeal, which can be daunting and intimidating. For many, the first port of call is a website, and there is no doubt that it is helpful to the user if the website provides concise instructions on the process.
A number of issues need to be considered and members have spoken about many of them during the debate. One is the lack of a consistent appeal route. The right of appeal is an important judicial principle, but there is no appeal whatsoever with some tribunals. As Nigel Don said, if a tribunal knows that it will not be subject to further scrutiny on appeal, that could lead to a somewhat lax approach when it considers the decision at hand. The appeal route needs to be tidied up so that people know that there is consistency.
We must also ensure that the appointments process is open and transparent. As many members have said, decisions taken at tribunals can have quite an impact on people’s lives. Those who sit on tribunals therefore have a great responsibility and we need to ensure that the people who are appointed treat their positions properly and are appropriately qualified.
We also want to know that there is appropriate independence. [Interruption.] I have some other points that I would like to make, Presiding Officer, if that is okay.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02521, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on the consultation on the new tribunal system in Scotland.14:58
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Roseanna Cunningham)
SNP
Today’s debate focuses on tribunal reform in Scotland and highlights our proposals for modernising how tribunals operate.Tribunals are a valued and distincti...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I draw members’ attention to the fact that we have quite a bit of time in hand in the debate, so we will be generous with time and will seek interventions.15:10
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the minister for her considered introduction to the topic and welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate on an important issue.Tribunals are a f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
I now call David McLetchie. Mr McLetchie, you may have a very generous six minutes.15:16
David McLetchie (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Oh, right! Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Would that you were always in a position to be so generous. We know that you are in spirit, even if you ar...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
What was all that about?
David McLetchie
Con
That is called padding, Ms Grahame. Laughter.I welcome the opportunity to speak slowly on this topic, following the launch of the Scottish Government’s consu...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
The member might be interested to know that there is a conversation between us in Scotland and the Ministry of Justice south of the border about the possible...
David McLetchie
Con
I thank the minister for that assurance. That is entirely welcome and I wish her well in those discussions.The need for reform of the tribunal system has bee...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
A valiant effort, Mr McLetchie.Before we proceed to the open debate, I am pleased to inform members that we have been joined in the public gallery by His Exc...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
This is a potentially interesting subject for someone who happens to be one of the many users of the tribunals service. I draw members’ attention to the mini...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the minister on two levels. First, I thank her for her fair presentation of the proposal that is set out in the consultation document on a new tribun...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
Presiding Officer, my heart sank when you said that we have extra time. We always get extra time when we do not have a lot to say.I commend David McLetchie w...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
I refer members to my registered interest as a member of the Faculty of Advocates.I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate. I am a relative newcomer ...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Lab
When the proposal to set up the Scottish Tribunals Service was debated in September 2010—there was the same glamour then as there has been in the debate so f...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
In its way, the debate—enjoined as it is to the Government’s consultation paper on a new tribunal system for Scotland, as announced by the minister on March ...
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
SNP
I would like to take us back a few years and to a little bit of research into the history of the situation. Members have referred to Sir Oliver Franks’s repo...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
There will be the possibility of sheriffs, sheriff principals and other very expert individuals adjudicating at that level. We are talking about a high level...
Nigel Don
SNP
I am grateful for that clarification.It has occurred to me that the upper-tier tribunal will set precedent. It will be staffed by senior people and it will m...
James Kelly (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lab
It has been an entertaining debate. We have had the glamour of David McLetchie, the dry humour of Christine Grahame and a history lesson from Nigel Don. For ...
John Finnie
SNP
The member mentions the stress that is associated with attendance at a tribunal. Does he agree that everything should be done to resolve issues through early...
James Kelly
Lab
I thank the member for his intervention and I agree with what he says. As he said in his speech, alternative mechanisms for dispute resolution before the tri...
Christine Grahame
SNP
I am trying to help the member out. Does he agree that the websites of some of the tribunals are quite helpful? Does he also agree that we should applaud the...
James Kelly
Lab
I thank Christine Grahame very much indeed.We all use information technology in our workplaces, but the issue is getting the information out to the 80,000 us...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
That is perfectly acceptable, Mr Kelly. I know that you have really important points to make and that the members in the chamber would love to hear them.
James Kelly
Lab
Yes. I can see that members are looking very attentive, particularly those on the front benches, who I am sure are willing me on.The independence of the trib...
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
SNP
I think that we should give a vote of thanks to Mr Kelly for managing to speak for eight minutes.I welcome the broad agreement across the chamber on this iss...
Roderick Campbell
SNP
So far, Colin Keir has not mentioned the tribunal judiciary. Does he agree that it is appropriate that the Scottish ministers determine their remuneration on...
Colin Keir
SNP
There is every possibility that I will agree with that statement.The tribunal system in Scotland requires to be changed. As we have heard, there have been va...