Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 29 March 2012
29 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tribunal System
I thank the minister on two levels. First, I thank her for her fair presentation of the proposal that is set out in the consultation document on a new tribunal system for Scotland. Secondly, I thank her for offering an opportunity to David McLetchie to link his name with the concept of glamour. I never thought that I would witness that in my lifetime, let alone see him dismiss the offer so quickly. That is perhaps a sign of uncharacteristic shyness on his part—only time will tell.
Tribunals will never be an attractive subject to debate in the Parliament, but all members who are present know the importance of the work that tribunals do on behalf of society. The use of tribunals as a method of achieving a resolution for members of the public and the authorities in a dispute, or of seeking justice in relation to broader public issues, is an important means of empowering the citizen and ensuring a proportionate response to issues that are raised. Tribunal decisions are an effective means of influencing the actions and processes of public bodies.
As we have heard, there are more than 40 tribunals in Scotland. They seek to adjudicate on issues and to referee between competing panels or sides. They decide matters that are of great significance to individuals and their futures, agreeing on additional support, employment rights, land ownership and much more using not only the law, but specialist technical advice.
Tribunals operate daily across Scotland dealing with a huge range of administrative and public law issues of significance to the state and the individual. Whether it is through an employment tribunal, the Lands Tribunal for Scotland, the Office of the Public Guardian (Scotland), the VAT and Duties Tribunal in Scotland, the Additional Support Needs Tribunals for Scotland, or the Scottish Charity Appeals Panel—to name but a few—the means by which justice is delivered should be important to us all.
The tribunals’ cases are many and—given the subject areas that are dealt with—they have a high impact on the people involved. However, for the most part the tribunals are staffed and transact their business outwith the public gaze, in a way that belies their importance. The array of the many tribunals—some maintained within the UK jurisdiction and others discrete in their Scottish delivery—is confusing, not merely for the public, but for some of the professionals involved. Sir Andrew Leggatt commented on that. The current proposals benefit from Lord Philip’s and Lord Gill’s reports. They are to be welcomed in that light, in that they begin to move this area of public law into the mainstream of delivering justice.
The Government consultation sets out a number of proposals for a new system for Scotland: a single unified system; independence for tribunal judiciary; the creation of a leadership role for the Lord President of the Court of Session and a new president of Scottish tribunals; an opportunity to integrate the UK’s system of tribunals with Scotland’s system; and the provision of an upper-tier tribunal able to deal with appeals emanating from the first-tier tribunal.
A single unified system will build on the streamlining of administrative support and make better use of the resources at the Scottish Tribunals Service. At a time of economic challenge, such moves can be useful as long as they focus on smarter working and service delivery and avoid the attraction of cost cutting for savings’ sake.
The declared independence of those who are engaged in judging matters across the landscape of tribunals in Scotland is not only essential; for many, it is an issue that should have been resolved years ago. The allocation of a role for the Lord President and the creation of a new president of Scottish tribunals reflect not only a bold job-creation exercise but, more important, a significant shift in acknowledging the important work undertaken by those in tribunals and the efforts required to drive up and maintain standards in the judgments and procedures adopted in this area of arbitration. Finally, appropriate integration of tribunal processes and support offers significant savings and consistency of outcomes. That professional support was hitherto delivered on the basis of good staff and committed people, rather than in conjunction with good systems and structures.
I welcome the placing of tribunals in a truly independent position by the reinforcement of an important sterile area between those administering judgments and those with Government influence. That independence is crucial, because many citizens are keen to have their cases decided on the benefit of the evidence before the tribunal and not because of governmental influence—imagined or not—that is brought to bear on those who administer the service on behalf of the Executive. Members will have cases of constituents who believe that their circumstances have been misunderstood or misrepresented by those in power. Tribunals need to be seen to adjudicate on the evidence alone. The proposals that are contained in the consultation that we are debating should contribute to that result. For justice to be done, it must be seen to be done.
I support the motion and the Labour amendment.
15:39
Tribunals will never be an attractive subject to debate in the Parliament, but all members who are present know the importance of the work that tribunals do on behalf of society. The use of tribunals as a method of achieving a resolution for members of the public and the authorities in a dispute, or of seeking justice in relation to broader public issues, is an important means of empowering the citizen and ensuring a proportionate response to issues that are raised. Tribunal decisions are an effective means of influencing the actions and processes of public bodies.
As we have heard, there are more than 40 tribunals in Scotland. They seek to adjudicate on issues and to referee between competing panels or sides. They decide matters that are of great significance to individuals and their futures, agreeing on additional support, employment rights, land ownership and much more using not only the law, but specialist technical advice.
Tribunals operate daily across Scotland dealing with a huge range of administrative and public law issues of significance to the state and the individual. Whether it is through an employment tribunal, the Lands Tribunal for Scotland, the Office of the Public Guardian (Scotland), the VAT and Duties Tribunal in Scotland, the Additional Support Needs Tribunals for Scotland, or the Scottish Charity Appeals Panel—to name but a few—the means by which justice is delivered should be important to us all.
The tribunals’ cases are many and—given the subject areas that are dealt with—they have a high impact on the people involved. However, for the most part the tribunals are staffed and transact their business outwith the public gaze, in a way that belies their importance. The array of the many tribunals—some maintained within the UK jurisdiction and others discrete in their Scottish delivery—is confusing, not merely for the public, but for some of the professionals involved. Sir Andrew Leggatt commented on that. The current proposals benefit from Lord Philip’s and Lord Gill’s reports. They are to be welcomed in that light, in that they begin to move this area of public law into the mainstream of delivering justice.
The Government consultation sets out a number of proposals for a new system for Scotland: a single unified system; independence for tribunal judiciary; the creation of a leadership role for the Lord President of the Court of Session and a new president of Scottish tribunals; an opportunity to integrate the UK’s system of tribunals with Scotland’s system; and the provision of an upper-tier tribunal able to deal with appeals emanating from the first-tier tribunal.
A single unified system will build on the streamlining of administrative support and make better use of the resources at the Scottish Tribunals Service. At a time of economic challenge, such moves can be useful as long as they focus on smarter working and service delivery and avoid the attraction of cost cutting for savings’ sake.
The declared independence of those who are engaged in judging matters across the landscape of tribunals in Scotland is not only essential; for many, it is an issue that should have been resolved years ago. The allocation of a role for the Lord President and the creation of a new president of Scottish tribunals reflect not only a bold job-creation exercise but, more important, a significant shift in acknowledging the important work undertaken by those in tribunals and the efforts required to drive up and maintain standards in the judgments and procedures adopted in this area of arbitration. Finally, appropriate integration of tribunal processes and support offers significant savings and consistency of outcomes. That professional support was hitherto delivered on the basis of good staff and committed people, rather than in conjunction with good systems and structures.
I welcome the placing of tribunals in a truly independent position by the reinforcement of an important sterile area between those administering judgments and those with Government influence. That independence is crucial, because many citizens are keen to have their cases decided on the benefit of the evidence before the tribunal and not because of governmental influence—imagined or not—that is brought to bear on those who administer the service on behalf of the Executive. Members will have cases of constituents who believe that their circumstances have been misunderstood or misrepresented by those in power. Tribunals need to be seen to adjudicate on the evidence alone. The proposals that are contained in the consultation that we are debating should contribute to that result. For justice to be done, it must be seen to be done.
I support the motion and the Labour amendment.
15:39
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02521, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on the consultation on the new tribunal system in Scotland.14:58
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Roseanna Cunningham)
SNP
Today’s debate focuses on tribunal reform in Scotland and highlights our proposals for modernising how tribunals operate.Tribunals are a valued and distincti...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I draw members’ attention to the fact that we have quite a bit of time in hand in the debate, so we will be generous with time and will seek interventions.15:10
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the minister for her considered introduction to the topic and welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate on an important issue.Tribunals are a f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
I now call David McLetchie. Mr McLetchie, you may have a very generous six minutes.15:16
David McLetchie (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Oh, right! Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Would that you were always in a position to be so generous. We know that you are in spirit, even if you ar...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
What was all that about?
David McLetchie
Con
That is called padding, Ms Grahame. Laughter.I welcome the opportunity to speak slowly on this topic, following the launch of the Scottish Government’s consu...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
The member might be interested to know that there is a conversation between us in Scotland and the Ministry of Justice south of the border about the possible...
David McLetchie
Con
I thank the minister for that assurance. That is entirely welcome and I wish her well in those discussions.The need for reform of the tribunal system has bee...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
A valiant effort, Mr McLetchie.Before we proceed to the open debate, I am pleased to inform members that we have been joined in the public gallery by His Exc...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
This is a potentially interesting subject for someone who happens to be one of the many users of the tribunals service. I draw members’ attention to the mini...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the minister on two levels. First, I thank her for her fair presentation of the proposal that is set out in the consultation document on a new tribun...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
Presiding Officer, my heart sank when you said that we have extra time. We always get extra time when we do not have a lot to say.I commend David McLetchie w...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
I refer members to my registered interest as a member of the Faculty of Advocates.I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate. I am a relative newcomer ...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Lab
When the proposal to set up the Scottish Tribunals Service was debated in September 2010—there was the same glamour then as there has been in the debate so f...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
In its way, the debate—enjoined as it is to the Government’s consultation paper on a new tribunal system for Scotland, as announced by the minister on March ...
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
SNP
I would like to take us back a few years and to a little bit of research into the history of the situation. Members have referred to Sir Oliver Franks’s repo...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
There will be the possibility of sheriffs, sheriff principals and other very expert individuals adjudicating at that level. We are talking about a high level...
Nigel Don
SNP
I am grateful for that clarification.It has occurred to me that the upper-tier tribunal will set precedent. It will be staffed by senior people and it will m...
James Kelly (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lab
It has been an entertaining debate. We have had the glamour of David McLetchie, the dry humour of Christine Grahame and a history lesson from Nigel Don. For ...
John Finnie
SNP
The member mentions the stress that is associated with attendance at a tribunal. Does he agree that everything should be done to resolve issues through early...
James Kelly
Lab
I thank the member for his intervention and I agree with what he says. As he said in his speech, alternative mechanisms for dispute resolution before the tri...
Christine Grahame
SNP
I am trying to help the member out. Does he agree that the websites of some of the tribunals are quite helpful? Does he also agree that we should applaud the...
James Kelly
Lab
I thank Christine Grahame very much indeed.We all use information technology in our workplaces, but the issue is getting the information out to the 80,000 us...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
That is perfectly acceptable, Mr Kelly. I know that you have really important points to make and that the members in the chamber would love to hear them.
James Kelly
Lab
Yes. I can see that members are looking very attentive, particularly those on the front benches, who I am sure are willing me on.The independence of the trib...
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
SNP
I think that we should give a vote of thanks to Mr Kelly for managing to speak for eight minutes.I welcome the broad agreement across the chamber on this iss...
Roderick Campbell
SNP
So far, Colin Keir has not mentioned the tribunal judiciary. Does he agree that it is appropriate that the Scottish ministers determine their remuneration on...
Colin Keir
SNP
There is every possibility that I will agree with that statement.The tribunal system in Scotland requires to be changed. As we have heard, there have been va...