Committee
Local Government and Regeneration Committee 21 February 2012
21 Feb 2012 · S4 · Local Government and Regeneration Committee
Item of business
Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Bob Jack (Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers)
Watch on SPTV
The Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers sets out its position on this matter in paragraphs 4 and 5 of its submission to the consultation, which we have resubmitted for the committee’s interest. Like COSLA, we question whether the non-departmental public body route is the correct approach and, in our submission, we suggest that a truly national and local partnership be created. Councillor Grant mentioned a shared service, and we think that it should be shared between the national and local levels. As our submission explains a lot of the rationale behind that suggestion, I will not waste the committee’s time going back into it. I simply flag up the point that the particular route set out in part 1 of schedule 1, where the body’s status is described, brings with it a whole lot of other consequences. Some very practical concerns for local government centre on the relationship between the national and local levels—I am happy to expand on that in further questioning—while other concerns are about what happens when you set up this kind of body. I am sad to say that in recent years we have had experience of setting up such a body in the policing field and having to deal with employment, VAT and other issues, which I appreciate might be for another committee to address.Our view is that this route is not the only one to go down in establishing adequate governance for a national police force. It takes out of local government something that has been there for centuries and moves it entirely into the realm of a quango. There is a different approach, of which, as we highlight in our submission, the Metropolitan Police Authority of London is an example.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Under agenda item 3, four panels of witnesses will give oral evidence on the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill. As the witnesses will be aware, our scru...
Councillor Barbara Grant (Convention of Scottish Local Authorities)
Thank you for inviting us along today.I think that we made it plain in our submission that we do not believe that the proposal for a national board with seve...
The Convener
SNP
Your suggestion is for 15 members with eight local authority representatives. How might those eight be selected?
Councillor Grant
I believe that the submission says that we would look to COSLA to put forward names of elected members. That would give a broader spread across the country, ...
Bob Jack (Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers)
The Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers sets out its position on this matter in paragraphs 4 and 5 of its submission to the consu...
Kevin Stewart
SNP
On the point about policing having been a local government matter for quite some time, I have to wonder whether it can be said that since reorganisation in 1...
Councillor Grant
That is perfectly true. As someone who sits on the Strathclyde joint police board, I am not aware that the precept has ever been refused. Of course, where pe...
Kevin Stewart
SNP
At the moment, apart from Fife Council and Dumfries and Galloway Council, no individual local authority has any real say anyway. Do you agree that the link b...
Councillor Grant
A local authority always has the authority to go directly to the chief constable or any of his subordinates and say what they want or what they feel. Local a...
Kevin Stewart
SNP
And that will not change—elected members will still be able to approach local commanders.
Councillor Grant
Well, we do not know that. The difficulty is that there is a big hole at the moment and we have not been able to get a handle on that.
David Torrance
SNP
My questions are about community planning and engagement, which is probably the issue that I have been asked about most by members of the public. What are th...
Councillor Grant
You are asking questions to which we do not yet have answers, as we do not have the detail to be able to respond positively. Community planning is a big focu...
The Convener
SNP
How could that be improved with a single police force?
Councillor Grant
We are led to believe that there will be a commander at a local level, but we do not know whether that commander will be for one authority or several authori...
Bob Jack
That is an important question that needs to be teased out. We raise some concerns about it in the SOLACE written submission. There is a danger that the somew...
Bill Walker
SNP
Good afternoon. I want to follow that up at a local level. In Fife, we have a pretty good relationship between Fife Council and the police, especially at loc...
Councillor Grant
One of the difficulties is that there is a huge gap in the information about how such aspects of the bill will work. From what we have seen of it, it is not ...
The Convener
SNP
Is COSLA in discussions with the Scottish Government about some of that detail? Is there any on-going dialogue?
Councillor Grant
We have been in discussion with the Scottish Government for a considerable period, but I cannot say that it has taken on board much of what has been said. It...
Bill Walker
SNP
As I have said, in Fife we have a pretty good relationship with all ranks in the matrix structure, from that of chief constable downwards, and I am sure that...
Councillor Grant
Absolutely—I am all in favour of starting at the bottom and working our way up—but the business of how we get from the ground floor to the top is the bit tha...
Bob Jack
The question of how to knit together the national and local bits, particularly in relation to community planning, is at the heart of this. Section 47 of the ...
Anne McTaggart
Lab
Will local authorities have sufficient influence over local policing and local fire and rescue plans, including budget setting and resource allocation?
Councillor Grant
We will have no influence at all over budget setting—moneys will be handed down, as it were. Once a chief constable and his subordinates are in place, it wil...
Anne McTaggart
Lab
You have answered my question—thank you.
Bob Jack
We touch on the issue in our submission. At the heart of it are accountability and responsibility and how people can be accountable without having responsibi...
The Convener
SNP
When we heard from the bill team a couple of weeks ago, it suggested that a local authority could decide to buy in additional services. Would that allow for ...
Councillor Grant
Local authorities already put in money for additional services, such as campus cops. We do not know what will spring up, but there is a level of business tha...
Kevin Stewart
SNP
I will play devil’s advocate a bit here. Councillor Grant, you point out that some local authorities choose to pay for additional policing. However, no local...