Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 15 March 2012
15 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
National Library of Scotland Bill: Stage 1
This has been a consensual debate, which has reflected the consensual nature of the committee’s discussions. I welcome Alex Johnstone to the world of culture and hope that he will be a regular visitor from now on.
I have a feeling of déjà vu, because I suggested reform measures for the National Library in the draft culture (Scotland) bill, which was consulted on when Labour was in government. I do not know why the Scottish National Party decided to remove those provisions from what became the Creative Scotland Bill, but that is water under the bridge. In today’s debate we must focus on the bill that is in front of us.
Many members have put on record their high regard for the National Library of Scotland and libraries in general, and I share that view. Since 1925, as we heard, the National Library has been Scotland’s only legal deposit library, but it is so much more than that. Indeed, the National Library is an important guardian of our history and culture and part of our family of national collections.
I remember the great excitement when the library was able, with help from the Heritage Lottery Fund and the generosity of the Murray family, to purchase the Murray archive, which contains the private papers, manuscripts and records of luminaries of literature such as Jane Austen and Sir Walter Scott and important figures such as David Livingstone.
The library was kind enough to give the President of Malawi a gift of a copy of a drawing that was sketched by David Livingstone in the margin of the diaries that he wrote during his travels in Malawi. I know that the president treasured it. As an admirer of the poetry of Byron, I remember my reaction to being given a draft printed copy of the poem “Childe Harold”, with handwritten corrections by the poet, to hold and to look at. I am sure that the minister will agree that the post that she occupies is one that comes with challenges but also with great opportunities.
I was delighted to hear the minister’s announcement about the film archive moving to Glasgow. The city will make a good home for the archive and the Kelvin hall is a splendid place for it to be located, as it is close to the Kelvingrove museum. I look forward to seeing the archive there.
Scottish Labour agrees with the Government that the time has come to modernise the governance arrangements for the National Library of Scotland. However, as Neil Findlay has pointed out, we still have questions that we hope that the minister will address.
I was glad that the minister took on board the issue of the size of the board. We look forward to hearing a little more about how she sees that fleshing out and developing, although I think that it is heading in the right direction. However, I have to say that Clare Adamson tempted me to suggest a further restriction to the size of the board when she spoke about the First Minister potentially losing his job. In that vein, I very much hope that Marco Biagi has not taken the minister’s decision about the board of the National Library too personally—I am sure that the decision was not intended in that way.
We are concerned about ministerial powers of direction and the shape and form that those powers might take. I caution against anything that would call into question the curatorial independence of the library or its ability to decide on its own research or exhibitions or on its acquisitions policy.
I mentioned earlier the draft culture (Scotland) bill. Some members may recall that, in the consultation on that bill, I floated the idea of there being ministerial powers of direction in respect of what is now Creative Scotland—I am sure that Mr Maxwell remembers those debates well. Having considered the responses to that consultation, I decided that we would not pursue that power in relation to Creative Scotland as its use would have been so limited as to render it unnecessary. I believe that that is even truer of the bill we are discussing today. Indeed, the further restriction of the opportunities that ministerial direction would give, which the minister outlined today, makes the case against ministerial direction even stronger. However, I look forward to hearing more about that issue as we go forward.
Ministers will have the power to make appointments to the board, and the chief executive officer is an accountable officer to the Scottish Executive, so a strong framework will already be in place. I think that anything additional to that would be questionable in terms of proportionality and might compromise the National Library’s ability to raise money from donations.
We understand that the library might want to capitalise on its ability to raise money from merchandising, particularly around a popular exhibition. However, as Neil Findlay has indicated, we are concerned about those aspects of the bill that suggest that the library might charge for certain services or for the provision of goods. Similarly, what mechanism does the minister see the National Library adopting to allow it to borrow money and, more importantly, to pay it back, and to what purpose would it do so?
Like colleagues, I am intrigued by the idea that the library might want to set up new companies. Perhaps the minister might clarify how they would operate and to what purpose they would be put.
I was interested in Mark Griffin’s remarks concerning “Oor Wullie”, and I bow to Mr Johnstone’s family expertise in that area. However, I simply say to Mr Griffin that there are other families that have the tradition that his seems to have. I also point out that you know that you have received one too many “Oor Wullie” books when you notice that the stories are being recycled—an experience that my brother and I have discussed on more than one occasion.
We all want the National Library to be able to grow and flourish and to be able to move with emerging technologies. So far, it has been remarkably good at doing so, and nothing that we put in place now should stifle that ability.
Scottish Labour is happy to support the principles of the bill and looks forward to hearing more from the minister about some of the specific points that we have raised in the debate. We also look forward to the discussions that we will have as the bill progresses.
16:20
I have a feeling of déjà vu, because I suggested reform measures for the National Library in the draft culture (Scotland) bill, which was consulted on when Labour was in government. I do not know why the Scottish National Party decided to remove those provisions from what became the Creative Scotland Bill, but that is water under the bridge. In today’s debate we must focus on the bill that is in front of us.
Many members have put on record their high regard for the National Library of Scotland and libraries in general, and I share that view. Since 1925, as we heard, the National Library has been Scotland’s only legal deposit library, but it is so much more than that. Indeed, the National Library is an important guardian of our history and culture and part of our family of national collections.
I remember the great excitement when the library was able, with help from the Heritage Lottery Fund and the generosity of the Murray family, to purchase the Murray archive, which contains the private papers, manuscripts and records of luminaries of literature such as Jane Austen and Sir Walter Scott and important figures such as David Livingstone.
The library was kind enough to give the President of Malawi a gift of a copy of a drawing that was sketched by David Livingstone in the margin of the diaries that he wrote during his travels in Malawi. I know that the president treasured it. As an admirer of the poetry of Byron, I remember my reaction to being given a draft printed copy of the poem “Childe Harold”, with handwritten corrections by the poet, to hold and to look at. I am sure that the minister will agree that the post that she occupies is one that comes with challenges but also with great opportunities.
I was delighted to hear the minister’s announcement about the film archive moving to Glasgow. The city will make a good home for the archive and the Kelvin hall is a splendid place for it to be located, as it is close to the Kelvingrove museum. I look forward to seeing the archive there.
Scottish Labour agrees with the Government that the time has come to modernise the governance arrangements for the National Library of Scotland. However, as Neil Findlay has pointed out, we still have questions that we hope that the minister will address.
I was glad that the minister took on board the issue of the size of the board. We look forward to hearing a little more about how she sees that fleshing out and developing, although I think that it is heading in the right direction. However, I have to say that Clare Adamson tempted me to suggest a further restriction to the size of the board when she spoke about the First Minister potentially losing his job. In that vein, I very much hope that Marco Biagi has not taken the minister’s decision about the board of the National Library too personally—I am sure that the decision was not intended in that way.
We are concerned about ministerial powers of direction and the shape and form that those powers might take. I caution against anything that would call into question the curatorial independence of the library or its ability to decide on its own research or exhibitions or on its acquisitions policy.
I mentioned earlier the draft culture (Scotland) bill. Some members may recall that, in the consultation on that bill, I floated the idea of there being ministerial powers of direction in respect of what is now Creative Scotland—I am sure that Mr Maxwell remembers those debates well. Having considered the responses to that consultation, I decided that we would not pursue that power in relation to Creative Scotland as its use would have been so limited as to render it unnecessary. I believe that that is even truer of the bill we are discussing today. Indeed, the further restriction of the opportunities that ministerial direction would give, which the minister outlined today, makes the case against ministerial direction even stronger. However, I look forward to hearing more about that issue as we go forward.
Ministers will have the power to make appointments to the board, and the chief executive officer is an accountable officer to the Scottish Executive, so a strong framework will already be in place. I think that anything additional to that would be questionable in terms of proportionality and might compromise the National Library’s ability to raise money from donations.
We understand that the library might want to capitalise on its ability to raise money from merchandising, particularly around a popular exhibition. However, as Neil Findlay has indicated, we are concerned about those aspects of the bill that suggest that the library might charge for certain services or for the provision of goods. Similarly, what mechanism does the minister see the National Library adopting to allow it to borrow money and, more importantly, to pay it back, and to what purpose would it do so?
Like colleagues, I am intrigued by the idea that the library might want to set up new companies. Perhaps the minister might clarify how they would operate and to what purpose they would be put.
I was interested in Mark Griffin’s remarks concerning “Oor Wullie”, and I bow to Mr Johnstone’s family expertise in that area. However, I simply say to Mr Griffin that there are other families that have the tradition that his seems to have. I also point out that you know that you have received one too many “Oor Wullie” books when you notice that the stories are being recycled—an experience that my brother and I have discussed on more than one occasion.
We all want the National Library to be able to grow and flourish and to be able to move with emerging technologies. So far, it has been remarkably good at doing so, and nothing that we put in place now should stifle that ability.
Scottish Labour is happy to support the principles of the bill and looks forward to hearing more from the minister about some of the specific points that we have raised in the debate. We also look forward to the discussions that we will have as the bill progresses.
16:20
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02332, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on the National Library of Scotland Bill.14:55
The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop)
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the National Library of Scotland Bill. I thank the people who gave evidence and I thank the conv...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
On behalf of the Education and Culture Committee, I make clear from the outset our unanimous support for the general principles of the National Library of Sc...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
I was going to whisper at the start of my speech, but that would have been a cheap and obvious libraries joke, and I would never indulge in such a thing.It i...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
In my opening remarks, I indicated that I would be willing to move the bottom end from seven up to nine. The range of board membership will be very similar t...
Neil Findlay
Lab
That is helpful.Reform is also about meeting challenges and embracing wider societal and technological change, and it is clear that the NLS has been proactiv...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
With regard to a number of points that Neil Findlay has raised, it is important to look again at the functions of the NLS. If it did anything to jeopardise a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
You must come to a close.
Neil Findlay
Lab
Parts of the bill are to be welcomed, but others raise questions about the role of libraries in general and the specific nature of the NLS. I raise those iss...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I apologise on behalf of my colleague Annabel Goldie, who is, sadly, not well today, and thank my colleague Alex Johnstone, who has come into the hot seat at...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I remind the member that for the Public Service Reform (Scotland) Bill the Conservatives lodged an amendment that would have given ministers greater power to...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You are in your last minute, Ms Smith.
Liz Smith
Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer.I accept what the cabinet secretary said. Others were also a bit concerned about the issue. Ministerial power should be about be...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I am a proud Lanarkshire lass who was born in Motherwell, which is one of the burghs that were blessed with the gift of a Carnegie library. I spent much of m...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
The National Library of Scotland is an extremely important resource for the people of Scotland, so any changes to its structure and operating procedures must...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I will come back to the issue of charitable status in my closing remarks, but I ask the member to acknowledge that some of the comments that he referred to w...
Mark Griffin
Lab
I take that on board, and I appreciate that OSCR has confirmed that the power of direction would not impede the library having charitable status.However, the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I am glad to hear it. I need to ask you to finish.
Mark Griffin
Lab
That issue should be at the forefront of any changes to the library, and I hope that the cabinet secretary and the new board will give it due consideration.1...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I begin by making two declarations of interest: as many members know, I am a member of the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals; and,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We are slightly tight for time, so I ask members to stick to their six minutes, please, if they can.15:49
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
As I worked in libraries for many years, I start by putting on record my appreciation for the good work of libraries across Scotland and for the National Lib...
Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
SNP
I declare an interest, which has already been alluded to. As the MSP for Edinburgh Central, I am one of the ex officio members of the board of the National L...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
I congratulate the cabinet secretary on the tone and content of her speech, much of which anticipated comments that I was going to make, and I welcome the an...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Little did I think when I got up this morning that I would find myself speaking in a debate on the National Library of Scotland. Nevertheless, to my surprise...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Can you come to a conclusion, please?
Alex Johnstone
Con
Indeed. Much more could be said on the subject, but given my lack of expertise it would make good sense for me to thank the cabinet secretary for her concess...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Given the lack of time, I am grateful to you.16:13
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Lab
This has been a consensual debate, which has reflected the consensual nature of the committee’s discussions. I welcome Alex Johnstone to the world of culture...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I thank the members who have spoken in the debate, and I would say that Alex Johnstone is living testament to the fact that libraries broaden the mind. I am ...