Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 15 March 2012
15 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
National Library of Scotland Bill: Stage 1
I congratulate the cabinet secretary on the tone and content of her speech, much of which anticipated comments that I was going to make, and I welcome the announcement on the film archive.
The convener of the Education and Culture Committee, Stewart Maxwell, has ably set out the committee’s views and concerns, and he has emphasised the support across the committee for the general principles of the bill. The debate has been useful in setting out the wider role that libraries play. Margaret McCulloch talked about her experience, I am indebted to Clare Adamson for her Carnegie quote, and Fiona McLeod was once again the redoubtable advocate for libraries and their role in our communities.
The legislation is much needed. Updating the library’s governance is perhaps long overdue and, as Marco Biagi says, the bill importantly clarifies the library’s functions. It was dubbed the getting-Biagi-off-the-board bill by some but, given the self-sacrifice that he has shown throughout, I was beginning to wonder why it was taking Government legislation to progress this change until he read out the list of other people who are about to lose their jobs, including the First Minister.
I thank the witnesses, the clerks and my committee colleagues for their efforts at stage 1. There is widespread agreement on the bill but, as I think every speaker has indicated, there are two or three areas of concern, which we will need to explore further at stage 2.
I acknowledge the importance of the National Library of Scotland and pay tribute to all those associated with its work. I was unfortunately unable to join committee colleagues when they visited the library but, like Marco Biagi, I had the pleasure of attending the banned books exhibition, which I found absolutely fascinating. However, I will perhaps disappoint Mark Griffin by suggesting that there was no “Oor Wullie” annual there, so they are clearly not edgy enough.
The visit provided confirmation for me of a statement in the Government’s policy memorandum about the importance of the NLS:
“NLS is a national resource which exists to advance universal access to knowledge about Scotland and in Scotland ... NLS brings Scotland’s history and culture to live in the modern context.”
That encapsulates what the NLS provides.
Marco Biagi also made a pertinent comment about the changes in the physical accessibility and the presentation of the NLS. I well remember scuttling by the front door as an undergraduate at the University of Edinburgh. There was never a terribly welcoming atmosphere, but that has changed beyond all measure, which reflects the changing demands that we place on the library and our expectations of it.
In that context, the legislation is necessary and welcome. It sets out the library’s functions regarding how collections are maintained, developed and kept relevant, and regarding access—acknowledging the demands for physical and, importantly, online access. The bill deals with the research function, which is a vital component of the NLS’s work, and with collaboration, recognising its role in sharing expertise and knowledge with the wider library community.
Collaboration is one aspect on which the ministerial powers of direction are focused. I accept the minister’s points about it being a power of last resort, and I am grateful for the efforts that have been made to restrict it as much as possible in response to the committee’s early concern about the NLS’s charitable status, which now appears to have been dealt with.
Some other concerns have also been allayed. The NLS has stated:
“we feel comfortable that there are very strong and effective restraints on”
the power of direction. However, it has also stated:
“What we regret is making a principle of the ability to direct the National Library.”—[Official Report, Education and Culture Committee, 7 February 2012; c 705.]
There are still misgivings, and I look forward to reading the cabinet secretary’s letter ahead of stage 2, which I and my colleagues will scrutinise.
Although I would not suggest that the cabinet secretary’s approach falls into this category, other aspects of what the Government is trying to do appear to be about gathering further control in the hands of ministers. That is the backdrop, notwithstanding the fact that Fiona McLeod has made it absolutely clear that she and many of her colleagues will be a force to be reckoned with if anyone seeks to mess with the independence—curatorial or otherwise—of librarians. Given the evidence that we have taken from the cabinet secretary and others, there are concerns that it is difficult to see how the power that we are putting in the text of the bill will be used. It is a dangerous road to go down.
The cabinet secretary has certainly allayed my fears about the size of the board. The range from nine to 14 seems entirely appropriate. Liz Smith made a sensible point about the smooth transition to the new board, and we will probably wish to look at the issue again at stage 2.
The National Library of Scotland is a national treasure. The demands that we place on it have changed over the years and undoubtedly will change in the future, probably in ways that we are unable to predict now. I hope that the bill can help to ensure that the NLS continues to meet the needs of the ever-growing number of people. I look forward to the stage 2 scrutiny.
16:07
The convener of the Education and Culture Committee, Stewart Maxwell, has ably set out the committee’s views and concerns, and he has emphasised the support across the committee for the general principles of the bill. The debate has been useful in setting out the wider role that libraries play. Margaret McCulloch talked about her experience, I am indebted to Clare Adamson for her Carnegie quote, and Fiona McLeod was once again the redoubtable advocate for libraries and their role in our communities.
The legislation is much needed. Updating the library’s governance is perhaps long overdue and, as Marco Biagi says, the bill importantly clarifies the library’s functions. It was dubbed the getting-Biagi-off-the-board bill by some but, given the self-sacrifice that he has shown throughout, I was beginning to wonder why it was taking Government legislation to progress this change until he read out the list of other people who are about to lose their jobs, including the First Minister.
I thank the witnesses, the clerks and my committee colleagues for their efforts at stage 1. There is widespread agreement on the bill but, as I think every speaker has indicated, there are two or three areas of concern, which we will need to explore further at stage 2.
I acknowledge the importance of the National Library of Scotland and pay tribute to all those associated with its work. I was unfortunately unable to join committee colleagues when they visited the library but, like Marco Biagi, I had the pleasure of attending the banned books exhibition, which I found absolutely fascinating. However, I will perhaps disappoint Mark Griffin by suggesting that there was no “Oor Wullie” annual there, so they are clearly not edgy enough.
The visit provided confirmation for me of a statement in the Government’s policy memorandum about the importance of the NLS:
“NLS is a national resource which exists to advance universal access to knowledge about Scotland and in Scotland ... NLS brings Scotland’s history and culture to live in the modern context.”
That encapsulates what the NLS provides.
Marco Biagi also made a pertinent comment about the changes in the physical accessibility and the presentation of the NLS. I well remember scuttling by the front door as an undergraduate at the University of Edinburgh. There was never a terribly welcoming atmosphere, but that has changed beyond all measure, which reflects the changing demands that we place on the library and our expectations of it.
In that context, the legislation is necessary and welcome. It sets out the library’s functions regarding how collections are maintained, developed and kept relevant, and regarding access—acknowledging the demands for physical and, importantly, online access. The bill deals with the research function, which is a vital component of the NLS’s work, and with collaboration, recognising its role in sharing expertise and knowledge with the wider library community.
Collaboration is one aspect on which the ministerial powers of direction are focused. I accept the minister’s points about it being a power of last resort, and I am grateful for the efforts that have been made to restrict it as much as possible in response to the committee’s early concern about the NLS’s charitable status, which now appears to have been dealt with.
Some other concerns have also been allayed. The NLS has stated:
“we feel comfortable that there are very strong and effective restraints on”
the power of direction. However, it has also stated:
“What we regret is making a principle of the ability to direct the National Library.”—[Official Report, Education and Culture Committee, 7 February 2012; c 705.]
There are still misgivings, and I look forward to reading the cabinet secretary’s letter ahead of stage 2, which I and my colleagues will scrutinise.
Although I would not suggest that the cabinet secretary’s approach falls into this category, other aspects of what the Government is trying to do appear to be about gathering further control in the hands of ministers. That is the backdrop, notwithstanding the fact that Fiona McLeod has made it absolutely clear that she and many of her colleagues will be a force to be reckoned with if anyone seeks to mess with the independence—curatorial or otherwise—of librarians. Given the evidence that we have taken from the cabinet secretary and others, there are concerns that it is difficult to see how the power that we are putting in the text of the bill will be used. It is a dangerous road to go down.
The cabinet secretary has certainly allayed my fears about the size of the board. The range from nine to 14 seems entirely appropriate. Liz Smith made a sensible point about the smooth transition to the new board, and we will probably wish to look at the issue again at stage 2.
The National Library of Scotland is a national treasure. The demands that we place on it have changed over the years and undoubtedly will change in the future, probably in ways that we are unable to predict now. I hope that the bill can help to ensure that the NLS continues to meet the needs of the ever-growing number of people. I look forward to the stage 2 scrutiny.
16:07
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02332, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on the National Library of Scotland Bill.14:55
The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop)
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the National Library of Scotland Bill. I thank the people who gave evidence and I thank the conv...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
On behalf of the Education and Culture Committee, I make clear from the outset our unanimous support for the general principles of the National Library of Sc...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
I was going to whisper at the start of my speech, but that would have been a cheap and obvious libraries joke, and I would never indulge in such a thing.It i...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
In my opening remarks, I indicated that I would be willing to move the bottom end from seven up to nine. The range of board membership will be very similar t...
Neil Findlay
Lab
That is helpful.Reform is also about meeting challenges and embracing wider societal and technological change, and it is clear that the NLS has been proactiv...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
With regard to a number of points that Neil Findlay has raised, it is important to look again at the functions of the NLS. If it did anything to jeopardise a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
You must come to a close.
Neil Findlay
Lab
Parts of the bill are to be welcomed, but others raise questions about the role of libraries in general and the specific nature of the NLS. I raise those iss...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I apologise on behalf of my colleague Annabel Goldie, who is, sadly, not well today, and thank my colleague Alex Johnstone, who has come into the hot seat at...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I remind the member that for the Public Service Reform (Scotland) Bill the Conservatives lodged an amendment that would have given ministers greater power to...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You are in your last minute, Ms Smith.
Liz Smith
Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer.I accept what the cabinet secretary said. Others were also a bit concerned about the issue. Ministerial power should be about be...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I am a proud Lanarkshire lass who was born in Motherwell, which is one of the burghs that were blessed with the gift of a Carnegie library. I spent much of m...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
The National Library of Scotland is an extremely important resource for the people of Scotland, so any changes to its structure and operating procedures must...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I will come back to the issue of charitable status in my closing remarks, but I ask the member to acknowledge that some of the comments that he referred to w...
Mark Griffin
Lab
I take that on board, and I appreciate that OSCR has confirmed that the power of direction would not impede the library having charitable status.However, the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I am glad to hear it. I need to ask you to finish.
Mark Griffin
Lab
That issue should be at the forefront of any changes to the library, and I hope that the cabinet secretary and the new board will give it due consideration.1...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I begin by making two declarations of interest: as many members know, I am a member of the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals; and,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We are slightly tight for time, so I ask members to stick to their six minutes, please, if they can.15:49
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
As I worked in libraries for many years, I start by putting on record my appreciation for the good work of libraries across Scotland and for the National Lib...
Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
SNP
I declare an interest, which has already been alluded to. As the MSP for Edinburgh Central, I am one of the ex officio members of the board of the National L...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
I congratulate the cabinet secretary on the tone and content of her speech, much of which anticipated comments that I was going to make, and I welcome the an...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Little did I think when I got up this morning that I would find myself speaking in a debate on the National Library of Scotland. Nevertheless, to my surprise...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Can you come to a conclusion, please?
Alex Johnstone
Con
Indeed. Much more could be said on the subject, but given my lack of expertise it would make good sense for me to thank the cabinet secretary for her concess...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Given the lack of time, I am grateful to you.16:13
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Lab
This has been a consensual debate, which has reflected the consensual nature of the committee’s discussions. I welcome Alex Johnstone to the world of culture...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I thank the members who have spoken in the debate, and I would say that Alex Johnstone is living testament to the fact that libraries broaden the mind. I am ...