Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 15 March 2012
15 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
National Library of Scotland Bill: Stage 1
I begin by making two declarations of interest: as many members know, I am a member of the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals; and, since November, I have been proud to be the chair of the Scottish Library and Information Council. In that role, I am delighted to say that SLIC welcomes the bill overall and feels that it provides a platform to deliver a National Library of Scotland that is fit for the 21st century.
There are three aspects of the bill that I would like to comment on but, before I do so, as a librarian I cannot possibly give up the opportunity to say thank you to the many members who have extolled the delights and virtues not just of the National Library but of libraries in general.
Neil Findlay talked about the fact that libraries are cherished, and I am delighted that he realises that. I point out to him that, in 21st century libraries, we do not say, “Wheesht!”—we just chuck you out. In the last year, it has been demonstrated that libraries really are cherished, because borrowing figures and visits to libraries have increased. Libraries are powerful at all times, but especially in times such as these, when people are feeling financially pressed.
I cannot move on without saying to Mark Griffin that of course the National Library of Scotland holds our treasures, and “Oor Wullie” is definitely one of them.
I want to comment on three aspects of the bill. Although they have largely been dealt with, I want to welcome some of the responses. I want to talk about the size of the board, ministerial direction and charging. If I have time, I would like to pick up on electronic legal deposit, as other members have done, although that issue is not covered in the bill.
I am delighted that the cabinet secretary has announced that the board will have a minimum of nine members. That is hugely welcome, and that was SLIC’s recommendation. The reason for that is that we must ensure that those on the board have a mix of skills and that there can be sectoral representation on the board. With a very small board, people can have trouble in covering absences—members have not covered that point—and there can be a worry with governance if a small board makes decisions when some people are absent. I am therefore delighted by the cabinet secretary’s announcement, but I ask her to clarify whether the minimum number of nine means eight plus the chair or nine plus the chair. It will be interesting to hear the answer to that question.
On ministerial direction, I am sure that many members will know that librarians are proud and fierce defenders of the independence of their libraries. That is because our core function is the collection and dissemination of information. Our core function is to collect and disseminate everything for everyone without direction, fear or favour. As a librarian, I had a long, hard look at section 8(1), which says:
“The Scottish Ministers may give NLS directions”.
I am happy that that is tempered by section 8(2)(a), which focuses that ministerial direction on section 2(2)(d), which is on collaboration between libraries, and section 2(3)(c), which is on the promotion of diversity. I am pleased that the cabinet secretary said that a letter will go the committee to give much more of an outline especially of what is meant by section 2(2)(d) and the promotion of collaboration between libraries. I know that that letter will be eagerly awaited far beyond the committee, including in the library profession. I thank the cabinet secretary for her extra clarification.
A shiver goes up a librarian’s back when charging is mentioned, but I was reminded of the reality. My first job in a library was in 1975, when our collection was thought to be free and accessible for everybody to borrow, but it was not. In those days, we had the add-on of big clunky videos, which we charged for. It seemed appropriate to do that, as the service was an add-on to our core service. When computers went into libraries 20 years later, we initially charged for access to the internet, as that was a cost for libraries. The Parliament and successive Governments have to be thanked for our having free internet access in every public library in Scotland now.
I am pleased with the cabinet secretary’s commitment, which she reiterated in the committee and today in Parliament. The Scottish Government is committed to ensuring free access to our collections. She has also said today that that free access cannot be interfered with by any ministerial guidance under section 2(1), which is on the general functions of the National Library, and section 2(2)(b), which refers to “making the collections accessible”. Statutory weight has been given to that commitment, and I thank the cabinet secretary for that.
On electronic legal deposit, there is the UK Legal Deposit Libraries Act 2003 but, nine years on, the librarian profession is still waiting for regulations. Libraries and librarians need those to allow us to do our jobs properly. I hope that the UK Department for Culture, Media and Sport will heed the cabinet secretary’s approaches and give the committee report due respect.
I welcome the bill.
There are three aspects of the bill that I would like to comment on but, before I do so, as a librarian I cannot possibly give up the opportunity to say thank you to the many members who have extolled the delights and virtues not just of the National Library but of libraries in general.
Neil Findlay talked about the fact that libraries are cherished, and I am delighted that he realises that. I point out to him that, in 21st century libraries, we do not say, “Wheesht!”—we just chuck you out. In the last year, it has been demonstrated that libraries really are cherished, because borrowing figures and visits to libraries have increased. Libraries are powerful at all times, but especially in times such as these, when people are feeling financially pressed.
I cannot move on without saying to Mark Griffin that of course the National Library of Scotland holds our treasures, and “Oor Wullie” is definitely one of them.
I want to comment on three aspects of the bill. Although they have largely been dealt with, I want to welcome some of the responses. I want to talk about the size of the board, ministerial direction and charging. If I have time, I would like to pick up on electronic legal deposit, as other members have done, although that issue is not covered in the bill.
I am delighted that the cabinet secretary has announced that the board will have a minimum of nine members. That is hugely welcome, and that was SLIC’s recommendation. The reason for that is that we must ensure that those on the board have a mix of skills and that there can be sectoral representation on the board. With a very small board, people can have trouble in covering absences—members have not covered that point—and there can be a worry with governance if a small board makes decisions when some people are absent. I am therefore delighted by the cabinet secretary’s announcement, but I ask her to clarify whether the minimum number of nine means eight plus the chair or nine plus the chair. It will be interesting to hear the answer to that question.
On ministerial direction, I am sure that many members will know that librarians are proud and fierce defenders of the independence of their libraries. That is because our core function is the collection and dissemination of information. Our core function is to collect and disseminate everything for everyone without direction, fear or favour. As a librarian, I had a long, hard look at section 8(1), which says:
“The Scottish Ministers may give NLS directions”.
I am happy that that is tempered by section 8(2)(a), which focuses that ministerial direction on section 2(2)(d), which is on collaboration between libraries, and section 2(3)(c), which is on the promotion of diversity. I am pleased that the cabinet secretary said that a letter will go the committee to give much more of an outline especially of what is meant by section 2(2)(d) and the promotion of collaboration between libraries. I know that that letter will be eagerly awaited far beyond the committee, including in the library profession. I thank the cabinet secretary for her extra clarification.
A shiver goes up a librarian’s back when charging is mentioned, but I was reminded of the reality. My first job in a library was in 1975, when our collection was thought to be free and accessible for everybody to borrow, but it was not. In those days, we had the add-on of big clunky videos, which we charged for. It seemed appropriate to do that, as the service was an add-on to our core service. When computers went into libraries 20 years later, we initially charged for access to the internet, as that was a cost for libraries. The Parliament and successive Governments have to be thanked for our having free internet access in every public library in Scotland now.
I am pleased with the cabinet secretary’s commitment, which she reiterated in the committee and today in Parliament. The Scottish Government is committed to ensuring free access to our collections. She has also said today that that free access cannot be interfered with by any ministerial guidance under section 2(1), which is on the general functions of the National Library, and section 2(2)(b), which refers to “making the collections accessible”. Statutory weight has been given to that commitment, and I thank the cabinet secretary for that.
On electronic legal deposit, there is the UK Legal Deposit Libraries Act 2003 but, nine years on, the librarian profession is still waiting for regulations. Libraries and librarians need those to allow us to do our jobs properly. I hope that the UK Department for Culture, Media and Sport will heed the cabinet secretary’s approaches and give the committee report due respect.
I welcome the bill.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02332, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on the National Library of Scotland Bill.14:55
The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop)
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the National Library of Scotland Bill. I thank the people who gave evidence and I thank the conv...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
On behalf of the Education and Culture Committee, I make clear from the outset our unanimous support for the general principles of the National Library of Sc...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
I was going to whisper at the start of my speech, but that would have been a cheap and obvious libraries joke, and I would never indulge in such a thing.It i...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
In my opening remarks, I indicated that I would be willing to move the bottom end from seven up to nine. The range of board membership will be very similar t...
Neil Findlay
Lab
That is helpful.Reform is also about meeting challenges and embracing wider societal and technological change, and it is clear that the NLS has been proactiv...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
With regard to a number of points that Neil Findlay has raised, it is important to look again at the functions of the NLS. If it did anything to jeopardise a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
You must come to a close.
Neil Findlay
Lab
Parts of the bill are to be welcomed, but others raise questions about the role of libraries in general and the specific nature of the NLS. I raise those iss...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I apologise on behalf of my colleague Annabel Goldie, who is, sadly, not well today, and thank my colleague Alex Johnstone, who has come into the hot seat at...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I remind the member that for the Public Service Reform (Scotland) Bill the Conservatives lodged an amendment that would have given ministers greater power to...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You are in your last minute, Ms Smith.
Liz Smith
Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer.I accept what the cabinet secretary said. Others were also a bit concerned about the issue. Ministerial power should be about be...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I am a proud Lanarkshire lass who was born in Motherwell, which is one of the burghs that were blessed with the gift of a Carnegie library. I spent much of m...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
The National Library of Scotland is an extremely important resource for the people of Scotland, so any changes to its structure and operating procedures must...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I will come back to the issue of charitable status in my closing remarks, but I ask the member to acknowledge that some of the comments that he referred to w...
Mark Griffin
Lab
I take that on board, and I appreciate that OSCR has confirmed that the power of direction would not impede the library having charitable status.However, the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I am glad to hear it. I need to ask you to finish.
Mark Griffin
Lab
That issue should be at the forefront of any changes to the library, and I hope that the cabinet secretary and the new board will give it due consideration.1...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I begin by making two declarations of interest: as many members know, I am a member of the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals; and,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We are slightly tight for time, so I ask members to stick to their six minutes, please, if they can.15:49
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
As I worked in libraries for many years, I start by putting on record my appreciation for the good work of libraries across Scotland and for the National Lib...
Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
SNP
I declare an interest, which has already been alluded to. As the MSP for Edinburgh Central, I am one of the ex officio members of the board of the National L...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
I congratulate the cabinet secretary on the tone and content of her speech, much of which anticipated comments that I was going to make, and I welcome the an...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Little did I think when I got up this morning that I would find myself speaking in a debate on the National Library of Scotland. Nevertheless, to my surprise...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Can you come to a conclusion, please?
Alex Johnstone
Con
Indeed. Much more could be said on the subject, but given my lack of expertise it would make good sense for me to thank the cabinet secretary for her concess...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Given the lack of time, I am grateful to you.16:13
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Lab
This has been a consensual debate, which has reflected the consensual nature of the committee’s discussions. I welcome Alex Johnstone to the world of culture...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I thank the members who have spoken in the debate, and I would say that Alex Johnstone is living testament to the fact that libraries broaden the mind. I am ...