Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 15 March 2012
15 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
National Library of Scotland Bill: Stage 1
That is helpful.
Reform is also about meeting challenges and embracing wider societal and technological change, and it is clear that the NLS has been proactive in that regard. The “Thriving or surviving? National Library of Scotland in 2030” report and the subsequent “Connecting Knowledge” report have sought to devise new ways to embrace digitisation and to broaden learning through the use of technology. That proactive approach is very welcome. I also welcome the cabinet secretary’s announcement about the screen archive going to Glasgow. However, any change must be managed and any future changes should be made while protecting the NLS’s independence and unique status. Research projects or decisions related to the collections, or any decisions about them, must be completely free of political interference. The principle of curatorial independence, like that of academic freedom, is one that we should protect at all costs.
That is why I have some concerns about the plans for ministerial direction. It is proposed that Scottish ministers may be given the power to give directions
“of a general or specific nature”.
The cabinet secretary addressed that issue in committee, but I hope that she will expand on it in her summing-up speech. I am sure that she does not want to micromanage the NLS—I do not think that she intends to stamp books and hand them out—but there are reservations about the proposals representing another yard down the road to centralisation of power. I am not saying that that is inevitable, but if a less reasonable person than the current cabinet secretary takes over her position in the future, that danger could become a reality. I acknowledge the cabinet secretary’s comment that the library’s independence will be respected, but it would be helpful if we could be given more clarity about the proposed ministerial direction. That would allow us to determine whether we need ministerial direction at all.
One of the library’s key roles is to preserve and promote our national culture and heritage, as well as to promote cultural policy. I hope that it will continue to be an embracing and diverse cultural policy that respects and reflects all the influences on our great country, wherever they come from, and that we do not become overly parochial. There is a danger that the Government could seek to use its position in order to use cultural policy as a vehicle to promote its wider political agenda, rather than to serve the national interest.
I would raise my concerns about the potential centralisation of control no matter who was in power, because, used wrongly, the proposals could represent a danger to the library that would dissuade donors, or even raise questions about its charitable status. Again, clarity on that would be helpful.
We have questions about other parts of the bill. As I have mentioned, the value of libraries lies in their universal character and their status as a public good that is, and always should be, available for all. They are not and should never become commercial entities, so we want more information on the suggestions that the NLS could charge
“for the provision of goods and services”
and that it could raise and borrow money with ministerial approval. Will the cabinet secretary expand on what that means? Which services might be charged for? How will moneys be raised or borrowed, and how would that affect the services? After all, we know that loans have to be paid back. I wonder whether it is a coincidence that the Scottish Government has given the library the right to borrow at the same time as it is reducing its budget by 11 per cent.
I am curious about the principle for allowing the library to create and own companies. We need clarity on what sorts of companies they would be and why they are needed. I hope that the proposal will not lead to the creeping commercialisation of the library. Any such move would call into question the broad principle and ethos that libraries, and the NLS in particular, are open and accessible to all people, no matter their means.
Reform is also about meeting challenges and embracing wider societal and technological change, and it is clear that the NLS has been proactive in that regard. The “Thriving or surviving? National Library of Scotland in 2030” report and the subsequent “Connecting Knowledge” report have sought to devise new ways to embrace digitisation and to broaden learning through the use of technology. That proactive approach is very welcome. I also welcome the cabinet secretary’s announcement about the screen archive going to Glasgow. However, any change must be managed and any future changes should be made while protecting the NLS’s independence and unique status. Research projects or decisions related to the collections, or any decisions about them, must be completely free of political interference. The principle of curatorial independence, like that of academic freedom, is one that we should protect at all costs.
That is why I have some concerns about the plans for ministerial direction. It is proposed that Scottish ministers may be given the power to give directions
“of a general or specific nature”.
The cabinet secretary addressed that issue in committee, but I hope that she will expand on it in her summing-up speech. I am sure that she does not want to micromanage the NLS—I do not think that she intends to stamp books and hand them out—but there are reservations about the proposals representing another yard down the road to centralisation of power. I am not saying that that is inevitable, but if a less reasonable person than the current cabinet secretary takes over her position in the future, that danger could become a reality. I acknowledge the cabinet secretary’s comment that the library’s independence will be respected, but it would be helpful if we could be given more clarity about the proposed ministerial direction. That would allow us to determine whether we need ministerial direction at all.
One of the library’s key roles is to preserve and promote our national culture and heritage, as well as to promote cultural policy. I hope that it will continue to be an embracing and diverse cultural policy that respects and reflects all the influences on our great country, wherever they come from, and that we do not become overly parochial. There is a danger that the Government could seek to use its position in order to use cultural policy as a vehicle to promote its wider political agenda, rather than to serve the national interest.
I would raise my concerns about the potential centralisation of control no matter who was in power, because, used wrongly, the proposals could represent a danger to the library that would dissuade donors, or even raise questions about its charitable status. Again, clarity on that would be helpful.
We have questions about other parts of the bill. As I have mentioned, the value of libraries lies in their universal character and their status as a public good that is, and always should be, available for all. They are not and should never become commercial entities, so we want more information on the suggestions that the NLS could charge
“for the provision of goods and services”
and that it could raise and borrow money with ministerial approval. Will the cabinet secretary expand on what that means? Which services might be charged for? How will moneys be raised or borrowed, and how would that affect the services? After all, we know that loans have to be paid back. I wonder whether it is a coincidence that the Scottish Government has given the library the right to borrow at the same time as it is reducing its budget by 11 per cent.
I am curious about the principle for allowing the library to create and own companies. We need clarity on what sorts of companies they would be and why they are needed. I hope that the proposal will not lead to the creeping commercialisation of the library. Any such move would call into question the broad principle and ethos that libraries, and the NLS in particular, are open and accessible to all people, no matter their means.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02332, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on the National Library of Scotland Bill.14:55
The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop)
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the National Library of Scotland Bill. I thank the people who gave evidence and I thank the conv...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
On behalf of the Education and Culture Committee, I make clear from the outset our unanimous support for the general principles of the National Library of Sc...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
I was going to whisper at the start of my speech, but that would have been a cheap and obvious libraries joke, and I would never indulge in such a thing.It i...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
In my opening remarks, I indicated that I would be willing to move the bottom end from seven up to nine. The range of board membership will be very similar t...
Neil Findlay
Lab
That is helpful.Reform is also about meeting challenges and embracing wider societal and technological change, and it is clear that the NLS has been proactiv...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
With regard to a number of points that Neil Findlay has raised, it is important to look again at the functions of the NLS. If it did anything to jeopardise a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
You must come to a close.
Neil Findlay
Lab
Parts of the bill are to be welcomed, but others raise questions about the role of libraries in general and the specific nature of the NLS. I raise those iss...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I apologise on behalf of my colleague Annabel Goldie, who is, sadly, not well today, and thank my colleague Alex Johnstone, who has come into the hot seat at...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I remind the member that for the Public Service Reform (Scotland) Bill the Conservatives lodged an amendment that would have given ministers greater power to...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You are in your last minute, Ms Smith.
Liz Smith
Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer.I accept what the cabinet secretary said. Others were also a bit concerned about the issue. Ministerial power should be about be...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I am a proud Lanarkshire lass who was born in Motherwell, which is one of the burghs that were blessed with the gift of a Carnegie library. I spent much of m...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
The National Library of Scotland is an extremely important resource for the people of Scotland, so any changes to its structure and operating procedures must...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I will come back to the issue of charitable status in my closing remarks, but I ask the member to acknowledge that some of the comments that he referred to w...
Mark Griffin
Lab
I take that on board, and I appreciate that OSCR has confirmed that the power of direction would not impede the library having charitable status.However, the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I am glad to hear it. I need to ask you to finish.
Mark Griffin
Lab
That issue should be at the forefront of any changes to the library, and I hope that the cabinet secretary and the new board will give it due consideration.1...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I begin by making two declarations of interest: as many members know, I am a member of the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals; and,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We are slightly tight for time, so I ask members to stick to their six minutes, please, if they can.15:49
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
As I worked in libraries for many years, I start by putting on record my appreciation for the good work of libraries across Scotland and for the National Lib...
Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
SNP
I declare an interest, which has already been alluded to. As the MSP for Edinburgh Central, I am one of the ex officio members of the board of the National L...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
I congratulate the cabinet secretary on the tone and content of her speech, much of which anticipated comments that I was going to make, and I welcome the an...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Little did I think when I got up this morning that I would find myself speaking in a debate on the National Library of Scotland. Nevertheless, to my surprise...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Can you come to a conclusion, please?
Alex Johnstone
Con
Indeed. Much more could be said on the subject, but given my lack of expertise it would make good sense for me to thank the cabinet secretary for her concess...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Given the lack of time, I am grateful to you.16:13
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Lab
This has been a consensual debate, which has reflected the consensual nature of the committee’s discussions. I welcome Alex Johnstone to the world of culture...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I thank the members who have spoken in the debate, and I would say that Alex Johnstone is living testament to the fact that libraries broaden the mind. I am ...