Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 16 May 2012
16 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
National Library of Scotland Bill
I add my thanks to those of Neil Findlay to Stewart Maxwell and the clerks. Stewart Maxwell has convened the committee with his normal sense of humour, and with good stewardship through a quiet authority, which is valued.
The Conservatives are of the opinion that the legislation needs to be modernised so that we can maintain and enhance the National Library of Scotland. The National Library is a remarkable national asset. Like others in the chamber, I pay tribute to everyone who is involved in its work, and to the large numbers of the public who are increasingly enthusiastic supporters.
I mentioned during the stage 1 debate the move away from the National Library being what some people call the library of last resort that is used only when people have searched unsuccessfully for sources elsewhere. That is no longer an applicable definition. That is good news, but the changes clearly bring different challenges and that is why the bill is necessary.
The Scottish Government has set out its proposals for change. We fully support it in its recognition that, in a fast-changing world of technology, we must put in place structures that will help to create not only more efficient administration, but a better system of access to the National Library’s archive, and better coherency and collaboration with the other national archives. It is simply not an option to allow things to remain as they are, and that was made clear to the committee throughout the process by the cabinet secretary and by the witnesses.
Throughout the committee’s evidence taking, I was continually struck by the professionalism, the dedication and the expertise of all those involved, and by the careful thought given to the future working of the institution and its role in modern Scotland. That expertise is, in many cases, unique: it brings with it degrees of specialisms that are not seen elsewhere.
It is on that point that we had some initial concerns about the original stance of the Scottish Government, and it is the reason why we believe that the size of the National Library’s board should reflect those who can represent the wider range of the specialist knowledge. I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for listening carefully to the views expressed at both stage 1 and stage 2, many of which were of genuine concern among the key stakeholders and MSPs about the minimum size of the board. The original suggestion from the Scottish Government that the concerns could be addressed by co-options to the board, when and where appropriate, did not address the more substantial concerns about the need for permanent access to a wide range of expertise.
Similarly, to argue that the Scottish Government is, in general,
“not in favour of large boards”
is not really a satisfactory way of persuading people that the appropriate size of a board is directly linked to the best advantage of the institution and the public that it serves.
A second major concern—and one that we have debated this afternoon—is the intended extent of ministerial direction. The policy memorandum lacks detail and clarity about the precise nature of the intended ministerial powers, which could conflict with other areas of the NLS’s management in which ministers have no power. Some guarantees have been given about the promotion of greater collaboration and diversity, but my Conservative colleagues and I remain unpersuaded that the provisions in the bill are not simply about increasing ministerial power for the sake of having a little more control, but at the expense of greater efficiency in the institution.
I listened carefully to what the cabinet secretary said about that. I accept her argument in relation to some technical issues, but there is an important general principle to be considered. As I mentioned earlier, the difficulty for the committee was that the Scottish Government chose to reassure us by stipulating situations in which the cabinet secretary or her successors would not interfere. This afternoon, she again defined the issue by stating what she could not or would not do. I accept that, but there is still an important point about the powers that she could have as cabinet secretary. That approach sometimes took us into the realm of the theoretical rather than the practical, which made things less clear when it came to justifying the enhancement of public benefit.
Nobody doubts that there is a sensitive balance to be struck when it comes to the legitimate concerns about how public money is spent and the professional judgment of the trustees and the professional judgment and expertise of the librarians—some of whom are in the chamber this afternoon.
This bill brings opportunities for the delivery of a better service, for wider access to the splendid archive that is the National Library of Scotland, and for the exciting developments that the cabinet secretary outlined. On that basis, the Conservatives are happy to support the bill.
The Conservatives are of the opinion that the legislation needs to be modernised so that we can maintain and enhance the National Library of Scotland. The National Library is a remarkable national asset. Like others in the chamber, I pay tribute to everyone who is involved in its work, and to the large numbers of the public who are increasingly enthusiastic supporters.
I mentioned during the stage 1 debate the move away from the National Library being what some people call the library of last resort that is used only when people have searched unsuccessfully for sources elsewhere. That is no longer an applicable definition. That is good news, but the changes clearly bring different challenges and that is why the bill is necessary.
The Scottish Government has set out its proposals for change. We fully support it in its recognition that, in a fast-changing world of technology, we must put in place structures that will help to create not only more efficient administration, but a better system of access to the National Library’s archive, and better coherency and collaboration with the other national archives. It is simply not an option to allow things to remain as they are, and that was made clear to the committee throughout the process by the cabinet secretary and by the witnesses.
Throughout the committee’s evidence taking, I was continually struck by the professionalism, the dedication and the expertise of all those involved, and by the careful thought given to the future working of the institution and its role in modern Scotland. That expertise is, in many cases, unique: it brings with it degrees of specialisms that are not seen elsewhere.
It is on that point that we had some initial concerns about the original stance of the Scottish Government, and it is the reason why we believe that the size of the National Library’s board should reflect those who can represent the wider range of the specialist knowledge. I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for listening carefully to the views expressed at both stage 1 and stage 2, many of which were of genuine concern among the key stakeholders and MSPs about the minimum size of the board. The original suggestion from the Scottish Government that the concerns could be addressed by co-options to the board, when and where appropriate, did not address the more substantial concerns about the need for permanent access to a wide range of expertise.
Similarly, to argue that the Scottish Government is, in general,
“not in favour of large boards”
is not really a satisfactory way of persuading people that the appropriate size of a board is directly linked to the best advantage of the institution and the public that it serves.
A second major concern—and one that we have debated this afternoon—is the intended extent of ministerial direction. The policy memorandum lacks detail and clarity about the precise nature of the intended ministerial powers, which could conflict with other areas of the NLS’s management in which ministers have no power. Some guarantees have been given about the promotion of greater collaboration and diversity, but my Conservative colleagues and I remain unpersuaded that the provisions in the bill are not simply about increasing ministerial power for the sake of having a little more control, but at the expense of greater efficiency in the institution.
I listened carefully to what the cabinet secretary said about that. I accept her argument in relation to some technical issues, but there is an important general principle to be considered. As I mentioned earlier, the difficulty for the committee was that the Scottish Government chose to reassure us by stipulating situations in which the cabinet secretary or her successors would not interfere. This afternoon, she again defined the issue by stating what she could not or would not do. I accept that, but there is still an important point about the powers that she could have as cabinet secretary. That approach sometimes took us into the realm of the theoretical rather than the practical, which made things less clear when it came to justifying the enhancement of public benefit.
Nobody doubts that there is a sensitive balance to be struck when it comes to the legitimate concerns about how public money is spent and the professional judgment of the trustees and the professional judgment and expertise of the librarians—some of whom are in the chamber this afternoon.
This bill brings opportunities for the delivery of a better service, for wider access to the splendid archive that is the National Library of Scotland, and for the exciting developments that the cabinet secretary outlined. On that basis, the Conservatives are happy to support the bill.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02878, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on the National Library of Scotland Bill.16:05
The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop)
SNP
I thank members of the Education and Culture Committee for their scrutiny of the National Library of Scotland Bill. Throughout the process, members have prov...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
I call Neil Findlay. You have up to seven minutes. Any time that you can save will be gratefully received. 16:15
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
In this era of huge change in information technology, with digital books, online resources, web-based learning, audio books and digital film, the role of mod...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I add my thanks to those of Neil Findlay to Stewart Maxwell and the clerks. Stewart Maxwell has convened the committee with his normal sense of humour, and w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We now move to the open debate. I regret to tell members that we are short of time, so if they can confine themselves to three-minute speeches, it would be m...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I thank members for their kind comments about my convenership of the Education and Culture Committee throughout the bill’s passage. I thank in particular the...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Over the past couple of centuries, libraries have evolved to become important institutions at the heart of communities across Scotland and the United Kingdom...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
The bill that is being passed today marks a new era for the National Library of Scotland, bringing its governance into the 21st century and freeing it to con...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
When I read the bill as introduced, I had genuine doubt as to the status in law of the proposed new entity. The existing governance was clear: there was a st...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the Government’s acceptance of an increase in the minimum board size, on which I commented at stage 1.I do not understand the positions of the othe...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
I endorse Fiona McLeod’s concluding comments.We have finally managed to get Marco Biagi off the NLS board in order that he can spend more time with his famil...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I offer my congratulations to Orkney library and archive, too.16:44
Liz Smith
Con
The debate has been largely consensual, out of a need to ensure that we maintain and enhance one of Scotland’s great national treasures for exactly the reaso...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Lab
Scottish Labour, too, welcomes the bill and recognises that reform of the structures that support our National Library is necessary. The fact that the existi...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I welcome the tone of the debate and the genuine respect that members across the chamber have expressed for the work of the National Library of Scotland.In r...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
There is far too much noise in the chamber. I ask members to settle down.
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
When I met other culture ministers in Brussels last week, I heard some fascinating insights from Professor Nigel Shadbolt of the University of Southampton ab...