Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 16 March 2011
16 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill
It gives me great pleasure to open the debate. The bill has taken a long time to bring forward, and there were times when I thought that we would never get here. Through the process, I have come to realise that there is a lot more to do in tackling domestic abuse—often, that knowledge almost derailed the bill.
Everyone to whom I spoke had another list of things that needed to be done, but much of that work cannot, in my opinion, be done in a member’s bill—for example, making restriction orders easier to obtain and ensuring that the victim and children can remain in the home. Work also needs to be done to protect children from domestic abuse, as being a victim of such abuse damages their life chances. Scottish Women’s Aid carries out good work with children, but we are some way behind other countries in protecting children and repairing the damage that domestic abuse does to them.
When I introduced the bill, I came up against human rights arguments. Although the clearest human rights argument I could find was that the state has a duty to protect citizens, that appeared to pale in comparison with the arguments that were put forward with regard to the offender’s rights.
When the bill was first introduced it contained a section on access to legal aid, which was subsequently removed for two reasons, the first being a human rights one. If the victim got legal aid, the defendant would need to get it too. It appears that the needs of the perpetrator take precedence over those of the victim. I believe that human rights legislation is there to protect citizens and victims, not offenders. Until we get our interpretation of those laws right, they will remain a bone of contention.
The second issue relating to legal aid was the inability to calculate the cost of the provisions in the bill. Legal aid that is paid in respect of domestic abuse is not measured separately, and there are therefore no robust figures to work from. That created enough doubt in Government and committee minds about the costs associated with the provision that they would not back it.
Subsequently, the Scottish Legal Aid Board gave reassurance on their procedures for emergency situations, whereby victims who are fleeing abuse can access legal aid immediately, which enables them to access protection. Such procedures are required by those who qualify for legal aid but cannot prove it because they have no access to their own paperwork, having fled an abusive relationship, or by people who have funds but are unable to access them if that might lead the perpetrator to track them down. In both cases, emergency legal aid is available. In the second case, repayment or a contribution towards the costs would be required to be made only when it was safe for the person to access their funds. However, if such procedures are in place, why would the provisions in the bill have led to increased costs? Legal aid legislation allows ministers to make legal aid available, free from contributions, to people who are in such a position. Primary legislation would not be required.
We are still picking up concerns about financial barriers to protection, and I urge the minister to examine that carefully and monitor the situation to find out whether such barriers exist. If they do, the cost for removing them should be brought back to the Parliament. Nobody should lack protection because of financial constraints; as a state, we have a duty to protect.
The second contentious issue in the bill was the inclusion of boyfriends, girlfriends and partners who are not or were not cohabiting. We struggled to find a definition for those people after stage 2, and were in danger of omitting them from the bill’s protection.
In 2009-10, the police recorded 11,000 domestic abuse incidents between partners and almost 19,000 incidents between ex-partners. We all know and use the terms “boyfriend”, “girlfriend” and “partner”, and we know what they mean. We know the nature of the relationship and we have no difficulty with it. It is disappointing that plain English does not suffice in legislation.
I recently spoke to Maureen Macmillan, who told me that during the passage of the Protection from Abuse (Scotland) Bill a similar problem with cohabitees arose—obviously, that is no longer a problem in law. Our legal system has to be fit for purpose. We need to use language that we all know and understand. That is a rant for another day, however.
I hope that we will not have problems in defining boyfriends and girlfriends in future. The form of words that the Parliament agreed is “an intimate personal relationship”, a definition that covers the spectrum of boyfriend/girlfriend relationships and partners in a relationship. The spectrum needs to cover every stage of the relationship from the start right up where another definition, such as married or cohabitee, applies. It is also clear that the definition covers same-sex relationships.
There were arguments about what stage of a relationship domestic abuse is likely to occur at and whether those who cohabit are at greater risk of abuse. It is clear from the figures that a significant number of people who suffer from domestic abuse do not live with the perpetrator. The bill must cover them. From anecdotal evidence, it is clear that domestic abuse can occur at any point in a relationship. In essence, domestic abuse is power-based abuse. It occurs when the perpetrator has the ability to exercise a degree of power over their victim. In some relationships, domestic abuse takes years to develop; in others, it takes just days.
Someone does not have to share a home with the perpetrator to suffer, but if the victim is a cohabitee, they need further protection. That protection is not offered in the bill. I ask the Government to take on board the need for a review of the protection that is offered in law to victims of domestic abuse and their children. Domestic abuse does not happen only in relationships that are fully sexual—relationships in which intercourse has taken place. It is about not the degree of physical intimacy but the ability to exercise power and control and to coerce. We need to protect all those who fall victim to this horrendous crime—a crime that is perpetrated by a person who is supposed to love and protect but who instead hurts and humiliates.
I ask members to support the bill at decision time. As I said, it is not the last word in tackling domestic abuse, but it is another step in the right direction. I look forward to the day when we as a Parliament and a society can eradicate this scourge.
I move,
That the Parliament agrees that the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill be passed.
15:32
Everyone to whom I spoke had another list of things that needed to be done, but much of that work cannot, in my opinion, be done in a member’s bill—for example, making restriction orders easier to obtain and ensuring that the victim and children can remain in the home. Work also needs to be done to protect children from domestic abuse, as being a victim of such abuse damages their life chances. Scottish Women’s Aid carries out good work with children, but we are some way behind other countries in protecting children and repairing the damage that domestic abuse does to them.
When I introduced the bill, I came up against human rights arguments. Although the clearest human rights argument I could find was that the state has a duty to protect citizens, that appeared to pale in comparison with the arguments that were put forward with regard to the offender’s rights.
When the bill was first introduced it contained a section on access to legal aid, which was subsequently removed for two reasons, the first being a human rights one. If the victim got legal aid, the defendant would need to get it too. It appears that the needs of the perpetrator take precedence over those of the victim. I believe that human rights legislation is there to protect citizens and victims, not offenders. Until we get our interpretation of those laws right, they will remain a bone of contention.
The second issue relating to legal aid was the inability to calculate the cost of the provisions in the bill. Legal aid that is paid in respect of domestic abuse is not measured separately, and there are therefore no robust figures to work from. That created enough doubt in Government and committee minds about the costs associated with the provision that they would not back it.
Subsequently, the Scottish Legal Aid Board gave reassurance on their procedures for emergency situations, whereby victims who are fleeing abuse can access legal aid immediately, which enables them to access protection. Such procedures are required by those who qualify for legal aid but cannot prove it because they have no access to their own paperwork, having fled an abusive relationship, or by people who have funds but are unable to access them if that might lead the perpetrator to track them down. In both cases, emergency legal aid is available. In the second case, repayment or a contribution towards the costs would be required to be made only when it was safe for the person to access their funds. However, if such procedures are in place, why would the provisions in the bill have led to increased costs? Legal aid legislation allows ministers to make legal aid available, free from contributions, to people who are in such a position. Primary legislation would not be required.
We are still picking up concerns about financial barriers to protection, and I urge the minister to examine that carefully and monitor the situation to find out whether such barriers exist. If they do, the cost for removing them should be brought back to the Parliament. Nobody should lack protection because of financial constraints; as a state, we have a duty to protect.
The second contentious issue in the bill was the inclusion of boyfriends, girlfriends and partners who are not or were not cohabiting. We struggled to find a definition for those people after stage 2, and were in danger of omitting them from the bill’s protection.
In 2009-10, the police recorded 11,000 domestic abuse incidents between partners and almost 19,000 incidents between ex-partners. We all know and use the terms “boyfriend”, “girlfriend” and “partner”, and we know what they mean. We know the nature of the relationship and we have no difficulty with it. It is disappointing that plain English does not suffice in legislation.
I recently spoke to Maureen Macmillan, who told me that during the passage of the Protection from Abuse (Scotland) Bill a similar problem with cohabitees arose—obviously, that is no longer a problem in law. Our legal system has to be fit for purpose. We need to use language that we all know and understand. That is a rant for another day, however.
I hope that we will not have problems in defining boyfriends and girlfriends in future. The form of words that the Parliament agreed is “an intimate personal relationship”, a definition that covers the spectrum of boyfriend/girlfriend relationships and partners in a relationship. The spectrum needs to cover every stage of the relationship from the start right up where another definition, such as married or cohabitee, applies. It is also clear that the definition covers same-sex relationships.
There were arguments about what stage of a relationship domestic abuse is likely to occur at and whether those who cohabit are at greater risk of abuse. It is clear from the figures that a significant number of people who suffer from domestic abuse do not live with the perpetrator. The bill must cover them. From anecdotal evidence, it is clear that domestic abuse can occur at any point in a relationship. In essence, domestic abuse is power-based abuse. It occurs when the perpetrator has the ability to exercise a degree of power over their victim. In some relationships, domestic abuse takes years to develop; in others, it takes just days.
Someone does not have to share a home with the perpetrator to suffer, but if the victim is a cohabitee, they need further protection. That protection is not offered in the bill. I ask the Government to take on board the need for a review of the protection that is offered in law to victims of domestic abuse and their children. Domestic abuse does not happen only in relationships that are fully sexual—relationships in which intercourse has taken place. It is about not the degree of physical intimacy but the ability to exercise power and control and to coerce. We need to protect all those who fall victim to this horrendous crime—a crime that is perpetrated by a person who is supposed to love and protect but who instead hurts and humiliates.
I ask members to support the bill at decision time. As I said, it is not the last word in tackling domestic abuse, but it is another step in the right direction. I look forward to the day when we as a Parliament and a society can eradicate this scourge.
I move,
That the Parliament agrees that the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill be passed.
15:32
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-8136, in the name of Rhoda Grant, on the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill. I repeat that we are very tight ...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
It gives me great pleasure to open the debate. The bill has taken a long time to bring forward, and there were times when I thought that we would never get h...
The Minister for Community Safety (Fergus Ewing)
SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to outline the Government’s approach to the bill.In one unfortunate respect, the bill is timely, in that the incidence of d...
Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I join all those who have commended Rhoda Grant for bringing before Parliament this important legislation to tackle domestic abuse. She can be proud of her w...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
Instances of domestic abuse in Scotland remain stubbornly—indeed, disgracefully—high. There were 51,926 incidents of domestic abuse in the last recorded year...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD)
LD
The bill addresses a serious matter to which the Parliament has devoted quite a bit of attention over the years since 1999 and which calls for serious politi...
Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I begin where Robert Brown left off by saying how much I admire the work that Rhoda Grant has undertaken on the bill. It is not easy to take through any memb...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to support the motion in the name of my Labour colleague Rhoda Grant. I offer her my unreserved congratulations on bringing to the ...
Nigel Don (North East Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I congratulate Bill Butler on that exposition of what Parliament is about, with which of course I entirely concur. I also congratulate Rhoda Grant on introdu...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD)
LD
Like all other members who have spoken in the debate this afternoon, I congratulate Rhoda Grant on getting the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill through to stag...
Bill Aitken
Con
I thank Mike Pringle for his kind remarks, which I appreciated.I hope that when the bill is passed, Rhoda Grant does not feel that because of what happened t...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, congratulate Rhoda Grant on what I am sure will be the passing of the bill later this afternoon. As Mike Pringle said, navigating a member’s bill thr...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
Maureen Macmillan was referred to earlier in proceedings, and I am delighted to see that she is in the public gallery witnessing the debate. I recall from st...
Rhoda Grant
Lab
I thank all members who took part in the debate for their kind words—in fact, their words were so kind that when Roseanna Cunningham came into the chamber sh...