Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 16 March 2011
16 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Certification of Death (Scotland) Bill
I thank the witnesses, in particular Professor Stewart Fleming and Ishbel Gall, who scrutinised the bill effectively at all stages.
I am pleased that we have reached stage 3, at the tail end of the parliamentary session, but I remain uncertain whether the bill will lead to a system that is more robust than the current arrangements and more likely to identify a potential Harold Shipman or even provide us with more information on cause of death, as Professor Fleming said when he gave evidence and as Richard Simpson said in the debate. Although I remain unconvinced by the bill, I am a non-clinical member of the Health and Sport Committee. I am concerned, however, that the two highly experienced doctors on the committee also have reservations about it.
The bill has changed radically since it was introduced, as a result of the evidence that the committee heard and the minister’s evidence at the end of stage 1. That demonstrates how poorly the measures on certification of death in the bill as introduced reflected 21st century life, and it calls into question the extent to which the minister and the bill team took on board the written evidence that was submitted during the consultation. The committee heard the same concerns expressed in oral evidence at stage 1.
Although up to 1,000 level 2 reviews will be more detailed than is currently the case, level 1 review and certification, which it is alleged will cover up to 25 per cent of deaths, will be significantly less detailed than is currently required. The minister has assured us that the number of level 1 and level 2 reviews can be adjusted up or down and that the matter will be covered in guidance.
However, the bill will be passed in the final days of this session of the Parliament. In May we will have new committees with responsibility for health and subordinate legislation, and, perhaps, a new health minister. The members who agree to the statutory instruments that provide for the guidance will likely be unaware of the serious critical written and oral evidence that has been provided and there is the potential for the number of reviews to be adjusted downwards to the unacceptable levels that were provided for in the bill as introduced.
We have been given assurances on the two pilots that will take place prior to full implementation. However, given discomfort at a review rate of 4 per cent of death certificates—that is up from the 2 per cent in the bill as introduced—will the minister consider having one of the pilots review 4 per cent and the other review a much higher number, for example 10, 20 or perhaps 30 per cent of certificates? Such an approach would enable the new system to be evaluated and might be better than having two pilots—one in an urban area and one in a rural area—in which the rate would be exactly 4 per cent.
Currently, 62 per cent of deaths in Scotland result in cremation. Three doctors check the death certificate in cremation cases, two of whom are not part of the professional practice of the first doctor. After the bill is passed, not three doctors but one doctor will check the death certificate—yet we are told that that is an improvement.
How many of the 25 per cent of deaths that are currently referred to the procurator fiscal are subject to medical examination and review? I understand that the number is likely to be low, and clarity on the issue would be helpful. Will the minister respond in writing on that?
The Scottish Conservatives will support the bill, given that further changes will be made through guidance. We trust that the reservations that have been expressed throughout the bill’s passage will be taken on board by the Government and whatever Administration is tasked with issuing guidance after the election in May.
10:49
I am pleased that we have reached stage 3, at the tail end of the parliamentary session, but I remain uncertain whether the bill will lead to a system that is more robust than the current arrangements and more likely to identify a potential Harold Shipman or even provide us with more information on cause of death, as Professor Fleming said when he gave evidence and as Richard Simpson said in the debate. Although I remain unconvinced by the bill, I am a non-clinical member of the Health and Sport Committee. I am concerned, however, that the two highly experienced doctors on the committee also have reservations about it.
The bill has changed radically since it was introduced, as a result of the evidence that the committee heard and the minister’s evidence at the end of stage 1. That demonstrates how poorly the measures on certification of death in the bill as introduced reflected 21st century life, and it calls into question the extent to which the minister and the bill team took on board the written evidence that was submitted during the consultation. The committee heard the same concerns expressed in oral evidence at stage 1.
Although up to 1,000 level 2 reviews will be more detailed than is currently the case, level 1 review and certification, which it is alleged will cover up to 25 per cent of deaths, will be significantly less detailed than is currently required. The minister has assured us that the number of level 1 and level 2 reviews can be adjusted up or down and that the matter will be covered in guidance.
However, the bill will be passed in the final days of this session of the Parliament. In May we will have new committees with responsibility for health and subordinate legislation, and, perhaps, a new health minister. The members who agree to the statutory instruments that provide for the guidance will likely be unaware of the serious critical written and oral evidence that has been provided and there is the potential for the number of reviews to be adjusted downwards to the unacceptable levels that were provided for in the bill as introduced.
We have been given assurances on the two pilots that will take place prior to full implementation. However, given discomfort at a review rate of 4 per cent of death certificates—that is up from the 2 per cent in the bill as introduced—will the minister consider having one of the pilots review 4 per cent and the other review a much higher number, for example 10, 20 or perhaps 30 per cent of certificates? Such an approach would enable the new system to be evaluated and might be better than having two pilots—one in an urban area and one in a rural area—in which the rate would be exactly 4 per cent.
Currently, 62 per cent of deaths in Scotland result in cremation. Three doctors check the death certificate in cremation cases, two of whom are not part of the professional practice of the first doctor. After the bill is passed, not three doctors but one doctor will check the death certificate—yet we are told that that is an improvement.
How many of the 25 per cent of deaths that are currently referred to the procurator fiscal are subject to medical examination and review? I understand that the number is likely to be low, and clarity on the issue would be helpful. Will the minister respond in writing on that?
The Scottish Conservatives will support the bill, given that further changes will be made through guidance. We trust that the reservations that have been expressed throughout the bill’s passage will be taken on board by the Government and whatever Administration is tasked with issuing guidance after the election in May.
10:49
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-8126, in the name of Shona Robison, on the Certification of Death (Scotland) Bill.10:32
The Minister for Public Health and Sport (Shona Robison)
SNP
We are debating a bill that will provide us with a proportionate and robust approach to the scrutiny of death certification. The proposals will lead to a mod...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I would like to add to the minister’s thanks by thanking the witnesses who appeared before the committee. They were extremely helpful. In the Scottish Parlia...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
SNP
Committees have that effect.
Dr Simpson
Lab
Yes. Thank you, Stewart—I have lost my train of thought now.In the case of a sudden death where we did not know a lot about the patient and we did not have a...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I thank the witnesses, in particular Professor Stewart Fleming and Ishbel Gall, who scrutinised the bill effectively at all stages.I am pleased that we have ...
Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD)
LD
The bill was interesting. When it first came before the Health and Sport Committee, there was a sense that it was a relatively simple matter and that it woul...
Ian McKee (Lothians) (SNP)
SNP
There is some belief that the bill is a dull affair and that it is just rather technical. However, information from death certification can have a major effe...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I am very pleased that we have reached stage 3 of the bill and that its consideration is coming to an end. I tend to disagree with Ian McKee, in that I think...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
SNP
I have a few observations to make, some of which pick up points that others have made and some of which are new. Dr Ian McKee talked about the importance of ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
That would be a sensible idea.
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
In that case, I will close. Clive James’s autobiography contains the wonderful phrase,“Don’t take life seriously; you won’t get out of it alive anyway.”Today...
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
LD
As I am not a member of the Health and Sport Committee, I come to the bill and the debate as a comparative layman. However, I am struck by a central theme th...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Does the member accept that it is not possible to eliminate all doubt from death? I say that having been close to a suicide. To this day, more than a decade ...
Jamie Stone
LD
I accept that, but the point of raising Kevin McLeod’s death was to highlight a case in which the element of doubt is unacceptably high. In a proper democrac...
Mary Scanlon
Con
Despite Stewart Stevenson’s incredible experience in business, innovation and enterprise throughout Scotland, he seems to think that modern technology is inc...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
I agree with every word that Mary Scanlon has said; I merely sound a note of caution that it is sometimes more difficult than people imagine to achieve that ...
Mary Scanlon
Con
I appreciate that, but I am sure that people around Scotland like Stewart Stevenson, working in an advisory capacity, can keep everyone right.My second point...
Dr Simpson
Lab
The bill began rather like the Patient Rights (Scotland) Bill, looking rather flawed and weary, but it has been resurrected through the useful process that w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Wind up, please.
Dr Simpson
Lab
We have a better bill now, although it still needs to be reviewed and we will examine the pilots as they go through. I support the passing of the bill.11:23
Shona Robison
SNP
The debate has shown that, although there are still differences of opinion on some matters, the Parliament has engaged positively with the bill and has raise...
Mary Scanlon
Con
I am trying to clarify two things. We all know that the cause of death is listed, but I have seen death certificates on which the major contributory factor i...
Shona Robison
SNP
There is a difference between that and a list of every condition, as I am sure we agree.Ross Finnie made a number of points and I am pleased that he found th...