Holyrood, made browsable

Hansard

Every contribution to the Official Report — chamber and committee — searchable in one place. Pulled from data.parliament.scot, indexed for full-text search, linked through to every MSP.

129
Current MSPs
415
MSPs ever elected
14
Parties on record
2,096,445
Hansard contributions
1999–2026
Coverage span
Official Report

Search Hansard contributions

Showing 60 of 2,096,445 contributions. Latest 30 days: 3,975. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 11 Jun 2026.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
17:18
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
That concludes decision time.17:31The rest of this Official Report will be published progressively as soon as the text is available.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The final question is, that motion S7M-00346, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on committee membership, be agreed to.Motion agreed to,That the Parliament agrees the membership of committees of the Parliament as follows—Climate Action Committ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, is: For 67, Against 25, Abstentions 26.Motion, as amended, agreed to,That the Parliament welcomes that the...
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote has been recorded.
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sorry—I could not connect to the voting app. I would have abstained.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The sixth question is, that motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, is: For 36, Against 67, Abstentions 16.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Baxter, Andrew (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and Wes...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote will be recorded.
Duncan Dunlop (South Scotland) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise—my vote was not recorded. I would have voted yes.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The fifth question is, that amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is: For 26, Against 91, Abstentions 0.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Is...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, is: For 66, Against 27, Abstentions 26.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Barratt, David (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)Beattie, Colin (Midlothi...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, is: For 17, Against 92, Abstentions 9.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Kerr, Thomas (Glasgow) (Reform)Kirkwood, David (South Scotland) (Reform)Langan, Jam...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Malcolm Offord is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser will fall.The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan M...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, is: For 94, Against 15, Abstentions 9.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Okay, thank you.
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
My apologies, Presiding Officer. That was left over from when the app was not working.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
We come to the vote on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee. Members should cast their vote now.The vote is closed.We have a point of order from Lorna Slater.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.17:18Meeting suspended.17:21On resuming—
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There are seven questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The question on the motion will be put at decision time.
Jamie Hepburn SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I hate to disappoint Ivan McKee, but his speech was not the last speech before the world cup. I will also undoubtedly disappoint other members given that we are looking to get out, but I will not take too long.Members will be aware that standing orders require the Parliamentar...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
Go on—why not?
The Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans (Jamie Hepburn) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I will move and speak to the motion, Presiding Officer.
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S7M-00346, on committee membership. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion.17:16
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
That concludes the debate on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does Mr Kerr want to intervene? I will get the time back, so I am happy to take his point. No, he does not. Okay.We have already saved more than £50 million on estates. I thought that it was 12, but we have now, in fact, shut 13 Scottish Government buildings. Murdo Fraser has ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Mr Kerr, you know to try to intervene rather than to attack from a sedentary position.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I think that the confusion is more broad. The Reform manifesto talks about getting rid of all 130 public bodies—or “quangos”, as they call them. However, there is also a recognition from across the Reform benches that those public bodies—whether Police Scotland, the court syst...
Victor Currie (Highlands and Islands) (Reform) Reform Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does the cabinet secretary recall that Max Bannerman’s point on community wind farms was that they do not rely on subsidies? Therefore, it forms no contradiction in Reform policy on our opposition to net zero.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Yes. David Barratt also draws out the important point that the inconsistency in the Reform position is quite apparent. Reform members say in their amendment that we should not be talking about this stuff, and then they go on to talk about it from very different and contradicto...
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
—renewable energy schemes and for community-owned wind. Does the cabinet secretary agree that that is not the kind of reform that we need?
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Hello. It is not a speech within a speech. It is an intervention.
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In moving the Reform amendment, Malcolm Offord stated that the Scottish Government should have no remit on net zero and energy, and he suggested cutting public bodies that are responsible for related areas. In contrast, Max Bannerman noted the value of community wind power in ...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I will take David Barratt’s intervention, and then I will go on to talk about those other contributions.
David Barratt (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In principle, we need stability of funding and to recognise the great work that happens in community organisations, which I see every week in my constituency. That work is absolutely critical, because those organisations are, to a large extent, the front line, and their abilit...
Bob Doris SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I commend the comments on the third sector that we have heard in the chamber this afternoon. I draw the cabinet secretary’s attention to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s report on funding of the third and voluntary sectors, and I highlight the longer-term fun...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
On reflection, I am happy with the extent of the contributions that we have heard this afternoon. As I indicated at the outset, I was keen to hear from members, and that is what has happened for the most part. I will try to pick my way through the mind map that I have in front...
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Before I call the cabinet secretary, I say to members that, if they seek to make an intervention, they should remember to stand up and ask to make an intervention. I notice that buttons are pressed but, sometimes, the speakers do not see who is trying to intervene.17:05
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
We move to the open debate.15:58
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I congratulate Ivan McKee—I will call him super Ivan, given the scale of his task, based on his speech and the vision that he has set out today.From listening to colleagues from across the chamber, I am struck that there is a lot of common ground here, and I think that we need...
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I begin by welcoming the cabinet secretary to his new role and wishing him well. As we have already heard, Mr McKee has been handed what might become the defining task of this Government, which is tackling the £5 billion black hole in Scotland’s finances. As Murdo Fraser has j...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47
Michael Marra Lab Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I point gently to the fact that Alyn Smith’s party had an outright majority in the Parliament for one of those parliamentary sessions, so not having had the numbers is not a foolproof excuse.Alyn Smith will find common ground across different areas. My note of caution to him w...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new role as Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform. I know that he is keen to dispel the notion that he is here as an axe...
← Back to list
Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 15 September 2011

15 Sep 2011 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Social Care Services (Procurement)
Scanlon, Mary Con Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV
I thank the Labour Party for giving us this opportunity to debate the procurement of social care services. Given the amount of information that I have on the care of the elderly, I will focus my comments on those care services, in the knowledge that similar procurement and pricing procedures are used for all vulnerable people who are in need of social care.

The briefing paper from the Learning Disability Alliance, which Jackie Baillie quoted from, was very interesting. As she said, it highlights the fact that the hourly rates for care at home range from £7.76 in West Lothian to more than £22 in Angus, which is three times more. It also says that, in Highland, the hourly rate is more than £15 per hour, which is £5 more than it is in neighbouring Moray. There is no doubt that there is a postcode lottery for care, and we need to focus on improvement, development and redesign of services to provide long-term value for money and, as important, to raise the quality standards of care.

Jackie Baillie said that she has raised those issues for three years. I have been raising the issue of the postcode lottery in relation to care home fees since 1999, and my persistence has not paid off—yet.

The postcode lottery with regard to care is true, with 7 per cent of care homes for the elderly in West Dunbartonshire being given the highest grading, compared with 70 per cent in Highland and 69 per cent in Inverclyde. Quality matters—let us not all get caught up with the issue of the costs and the fees. Several councils have no care homes in the weak or unsatisfactory categories, but up to 35 per cent of homes in certain council areas are in those categories.

Not only is there disparity between the gradings of care homes, but there are huge differences between the fees of those who self-fund their care and those who do not. As responsible parliamentarians, we need to do something to incentivise people to save for their old age but, with the way that things are at the moment, there is no incentive. I will give a few examples relating to council-run homes, which I obtained through a freedom of information request. In South Lanarkshire, a self-funding client pays £474 a week to be cared for in a council home. That rises to £552 a week in North Lanarkshire, £650 a week in Fife and East Lothian and £843 in Dundee—a difference of £369 between the lowest and the highest mainland councils.

The costs of care differ widely, too. They range from £474 in a council-owned and council-run home in Midlothian to more than £900 in one in Angus—a difference of 91 per cent. In the independent and voluntary sector, councils pay £474.16, in agreement with COSLA. For the same quality of care and support, a self-funding client in the same home can pay £950 a week—twice as much. How can it be fair that two people in the same care home receive identical care, with identical quality standards, when one has to pay twice as much as the other is funded?

We should ask why councils charge self-funders up to 78 per cent more in one area than in another, and so much more than they pay to fund a place in the independent and voluntary sector. How can there be a difference of 91 per cent in the costs of providing care between one mainland council area and another?

There is another postcode lottery in relation to self-funding clients. As they are self-funded they are placed instantly in a care home, while others—through no fault of their own—must wait for funding packages from local authorities and are labelled as bed-blockers, the numbers of whom are rising week by week. That is why we are seeking a review of the charges. There is nothing complex in it: anyone with basic mental arithmetic could compare those figures.

In March 2010, there were 39,150 places in care homes for the elderly, with 33,900 residents. In simple terms, we have 5,209 empty beds out there, yet the cost of emergency admissions to our hospitals is one of the largest health budgets. Those homes could be better used for respite care. If we were to concentrate on delivering high standards of care to people in their own homes, there would be many fewer emergency hospital admissions and less need for long-term stays in homes.

It need not cost more to improve, develop and redesign services. If a general practitioner and a pharmacist visited a care home more regularly, medication could be reviewed and potentially reduced. With the right skills, knowledge and training, much more effective personalised and appropriate care could be provided.

I find it quite upsetting that 75 per cent of elderly people in care homes are on psychoactive drugs, perhaps because they have become agitated in one instance. If our elderly people are constantly on those drugs, we are not serving them well.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-00854, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on the procurement of social care services.10:27
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
How we care for the old, the vulnerable and the young is considered to demonstrate the essential character of a society, its values and its beliefs. The prov...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
We have quite a bit of time in hand, so I will be able to be generous with those who wish to speak for a little longer than the allocated time. I call Aileen...
The Minister for Local Government and Planning (Aileen Campbell) SNP
I thank Jackie Baillie for raising such an interesting yet critical issue during this period of imposed austerity for Scottish public expenditure.Although I ...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Does the minister not accept that a signal is perhaps being sent that the Government is reflecting producer interests in this debate?
Aileen Campbell SNP
I think that we are sending a clear signal that this Government has a joined-up approach, and we are reflecting the importance of local government in the deb...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I hear what the minister is saying, but there has been a joint futures unit in the Scottish Government since we set it up in 2001 to integrate care. Is that ...
Aileen Campbell SNP
We are taking forward that joint approach. The cabinet secretary will provide further detail later. As I said, we have been speaking to key people, but we mu...
Aileen Campbell SNP
To that end, we are developing proposals to help partnerships develop joint commissioning strategies; we asked them to work on those strategies together with...
Bill Walker (Dunfermline) (SNP) SNP
Does the minister agree that we are trying to make a virtue out of financial necessity—a financial necessity that has been forced on us not only by the coali...
Aileen Campbell SNP
The member makes a very good point: the cuts that have been imposed on the Parliament were started by Labour and have been continued by the coalition.What is...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Will the member give way?
Aileen Campbell SNP
I am in my last minute, and I have taken three interventions already.It is important that public bodies and service providers work together to find innovativ...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I thank the Labour Party for giving us this opportunity to debate the procurement of social care services. Given the amount of information that I have on the...
Dr Simpson Lab
Will the member give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
I am afraid that the member is over her time.
Mary Scanlon Con
I move amendment S4M-00854.1, to insert at end:“and calls on the Scottish Government to review the system of charges for care home places whereby, at present...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the staff of Quarriers who are sitting in the gallery. I ask the First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy...
Aileen Campbell SNP
Will Mary Fee take an intervention?
Mary Fee Lab
I am sorry—I do not have time.Operating costs have been reduced hugely through cuts to staff pay and changes to terms and conditions, for example. If we cont...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Will Mary Fee please wind up?
Mary Fee Lab
The organisations that deliver our social care must not be attacked further. I call on the Government to protect organisations, staff and service users alike...
Dennis Robertson (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) SNP
I declare an interest, as I worked in the social care sector for more than 30 years. As a member of the third sector, I was very much involved in working wit...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I ask the member to come to a conclusion.
Dennis Robertson SNP
I do not believe that we should compromise quality at any time. I thank the Labour Party for bringing the motion to the Parliament.11:01
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I, too, welcome the debate and, knowing full well Jackie Baillie’s integrity and intent on the questions, I am particularly happy to participate in it. Howev...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Does the member accept that the Scottish Government’s amendment is factually inaccurate because, actually, the Scottish Government budget rose year on year u...
Chic Brodie SNP
No apology is needed, because Ms Baillie knows that the local government financial settlement for 2011-12 is exactly the same as it was for last year. The im...
Drew Smith (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
The motion that my colleague Mary Fee lodged encouraged Quarriers to go to the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, which is the national organisa...
Chic Brodie SNP
I am sure that Mary Fee knows as well as I do that direct discussions between management and the union were going on at that time, although I accept that the...