Committee
Public Audit Committee 23 February 2011
23 Feb 2011 · S3 · Public Audit Committee
Item of business
Section 23 Reports
“Maintaining Scotland’s Roads: a follow-up report”
I thank the Auditor General and Ronnie Nicol for a comprehensive introduction to a significant issue for us all. You have posed a challenge to politicians of all parties on how they address it. It is quite sobering and worrying to hear what you have had to say.The Auditor General’s point about the responsibility of the current generation of decision makers not to pass on a burden to future generations is well made. We have been the beneficiaries of good long-term planning and better times. There is some evidence that we are spending for the short term but not thinking in the long term.Audit Scotland might not have looked at this, but I understand the difficulties that councils have had in responding to two pretty severe winters that have had a huge impact on our local and national road network. The Auditor General gave us an amusing anecdote about his car being off the road because it hit a pothole, which is an experience that will have been shared with anguish, not amusement, by thousands of people across Scotland. Those who have their cars damaged by potholes are frustrated when they attempt to make a claim and the council’s insurers fall back on a tried and tested routine of asking whether the pothole has been reported. If it has not, the council accepts no liability or responsibility. Therefore, when people see a pothole, it is important that they do not just moan about it but report it, to protect the interests of other motorists.I understand that part of the problem is the budgetary situation, but it is increasingly evident that, when there is a local response to reports of potholes, the councils in general do not fix the problem for the long term. They merely respond to the problem to avoid an insurance liability. I can comment only on the area that I live in and represent in Renfrewshire, which Ronnie Nicol will be familiar with. Some roads virtually have ditches running down the middle of them and you cannot go near the side of the road on others unless you want to inflict significant damage on your car. What has happened is worrying, to say the least. In fact, it is appalling.There used to be a phrase about not throwing money down the drain. Now we see councils wasting money by throwing it down potholes. They are putting on temporary patches, which are only there for days before they start to unravel, but the councils can say that they have responded to the report about the pothole. There is no way on God’s earth that those repairs are going to last.However, I know companies across Scotland that are saying that they can do a job that, although it might initially be more expensive, will solve the problem with a solution that will last and save the councils money in the long run. What do we need to do, first, to get some common sense applied to the problem and, secondly, to address the immediate financial burden of a repair that might be more expensive but which—to come back to the Auditor General’s exhortation—will better serve us and future generations? What needs to be done to bring that common sense to the approach?
In the same item of business
The Convener
Lab
Item 2 is consideration of “Maintaining Scotland’s Roads: a follow-up report”, which is a topical issue. I invite the Auditor General to comment.
Mr Black
Thank you, convener. The only interest that I have to declare is that I own a car. Laughter.
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
Lab
And it is off the road.
Mr Black
It was off the road for 48 hours because of an unforeseen pothole.
Mr McAveety
Lab
Why is that not in the report?
Mr Black
I sometimes think that, if we want media headlines, all we have to do is publish a report on potholes. However, to be serious—and we always report on serious...
Ronnie Nicol (Audit Scotland)
Scotland’s road network consists of almost 56,000km of road. Transport Scotland is responsible for 3,400km of motorways and trunk roads, and councils are res...
The Convener
Lab
I thank the Auditor General and Ronnie Nicol for a comprehensive introduction to a significant issue for us all. You have posed a challenge to politicians of...
Mr Black
We have no easy answer to that. If we had, we would share it with you. It is one of those occasions on which the analysis asks more questions than it answers...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I endorse the convener’s remarks. The problem, though, is not just with local roads; driving on the M90, as I do several times a week, I find myself weaving ...
Ronnie Nicol
Yes. We carried out the audit work for this report last summer and autumn, and the statistics from SCOTS that we have used are for a similar period.I should ...
Murdo Fraser
Con
Perhaps we need another category—“extra worse”, perhaps—for future reports.I was interested to read in the second key message that public spending in Scotlan...
Ronnie Nicol
As this was a follow-up audit, we were essentially looking at the data that we had received in the previous audit. On this occasion, we focused on levels of ...
Murdo Fraser
Con
Exhibit 6 on page 11 compares the situation in Scotland with that in England and Wales. It is clear that we are in a much worse position than they are; for e...
Ronnie Nicol
I am afraid that we did not drill into those differences to find out the reasons for them, but we thought that it might at least be of interest to present th...
Mr Black
That is another issue that has emerged from the report to which others will have to provide answers.
Murdo Fraser
Con
I do not know how we are fixed with regard to following up this report, but it is an issue that we could consider.
Mr McAveety
Lab
In much of this discussion it seems that personal testimonies are required. It would be helpful if committee members helped each other in their appeals to lo...
Ronnie Nicol
The figure was provided by professional transport managers, so it reflects their judgment on keeping the roads in an acceptable, usable condition.
Mr McAveety
Lab
What role is there for national direction in the debate, given that despite the publication of a major report little has changed dramatically?The differences...
Ronnie Nicol
I think that such factors are part of what has driven us to recommend that everyone comes together to have a new look at things at a national level. There ha...
George Foulkes
Lab
Please excuse the pun when I say that we seem to keep trying to reinvent the wheel. Lord Wheatley had it right in the early 1970s—
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Is he still in the Lords with you, George?
George Foulkes
Lab
No. I am talking about the late Lord Wheatley. He is no longer there—at least, I did not notice him, anyway.As I recall, the best time for road maintenance w...
Mr Black
Yes.
George Foulkes
Lab
I get the impression—this is not a party-political point in any way—that officials in the Scottish Executive or Government transport department are preoccupi...
Anne McLaughlin
SNP
Would trams fall into that category?
Mr Black
If I may, I would prefer not to respond to the latter part of Mr Foulkes’s comment. On the former part, as some committee members might be aware, I have had ...
George Foulkes
Lab
Of course the one good thing about trams is that they do not create potholes, do they?
The Convener
Lab
We will leave that one for the moment.