Committee
Public Audit Committee 23 February 2011
23 Feb 2011 · S3 · Public Audit Committee
Item of business
Section 23 Reports
“Maintaining Scotland’s Roads: a follow-up report”
Mr Black
Watch on SPTV
I sometimes think that, if we want media headlines, all we have to do is publish a report on potholes. However, to be serious—and we always report on serious matters—this is again a joint report with the Accounts Commission because of its responsibility for the oversight of local government expenditure. As before, I will offer a few brief comments and then hand over to Ronnie Nicol, who was in charge of this project and who will take you briefly through the main findings and recommendations.As the convener has just acknowledged, this is a matter of great public interest. There has been almost unprecedented media coverage of this particular report. We previously looked at road maintenance in 2004, and this report examines the progress that has been made by both Transport Scotland and local councils on implementing the recommendations that we made then. This report is therefore a follow-up to a previous report in which we made a set of clear recommendations. It reviews changes in the condition of the road network since 2004, how much is currently being spent on road maintenance, and how road maintenance is being managed.I would like to emphasise that the report is based on information that was collected between March and October 2010, so it does not consider the impact of this winter. In particular, it does not consider the severe weather that we all experienced round about Christmas. Even so, I have to say that what we found is rather disappointing. The condition of Scotland’s roads has worsened since our previous report. More significantly, the expenditure trends and the scale of the backlog in maintenance mean that the asset value of the network is not being sustained. As I have said on other occasions, deferring essential expenditure is a serious issue. In the first place, we are simply storing up problems for the future if we do not maintain the infrastructure. Secondly, we are simply passing on to our children and to future generations the burden that arises from our consumption of the assets that we inherited from the previous generation. There is a significant issue relating to fairness between our generation and the generations to come.The Government, local authorities and all public bodies are having to make extremely difficult spending decisions on their competing priorities. However, in view of the fact that our overall performance is slipping back, we suggest in the report that we need to think more radically about how Scotland’s road network is managed and maintained. We have suggested that there might be some kind of national review on behalf of the Government that allows all the parties to come together and seek the solutions that are urgently needed.At this point I will hand over to Ronnie Nicol, who will say a little bit more about some of the key findings.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Lab
Item 2 is consideration of “Maintaining Scotland’s Roads: a follow-up report”, which is a topical issue. I invite the Auditor General to comment.
Mr Black
Thank you, convener. The only interest that I have to declare is that I own a car. Laughter.
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
Lab
And it is off the road.
Mr Black
It was off the road for 48 hours because of an unforeseen pothole.
Mr McAveety
Lab
Why is that not in the report?
Mr Black
I sometimes think that, if we want media headlines, all we have to do is publish a report on potholes. However, to be serious—and we always report on serious...
Ronnie Nicol (Audit Scotland)
Scotland’s road network consists of almost 56,000km of road. Transport Scotland is responsible for 3,400km of motorways and trunk roads, and councils are res...
The Convener
Lab
I thank the Auditor General and Ronnie Nicol for a comprehensive introduction to a significant issue for us all. You have posed a challenge to politicians of...
Mr Black
We have no easy answer to that. If we had, we would share it with you. It is one of those occasions on which the analysis asks more questions than it answers...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I endorse the convener’s remarks. The problem, though, is not just with local roads; driving on the M90, as I do several times a week, I find myself weaving ...
Ronnie Nicol
Yes. We carried out the audit work for this report last summer and autumn, and the statistics from SCOTS that we have used are for a similar period.I should ...
Murdo Fraser
Con
Perhaps we need another category—“extra worse”, perhaps—for future reports.I was interested to read in the second key message that public spending in Scotlan...
Ronnie Nicol
As this was a follow-up audit, we were essentially looking at the data that we had received in the previous audit. On this occasion, we focused on levels of ...
Murdo Fraser
Con
Exhibit 6 on page 11 compares the situation in Scotland with that in England and Wales. It is clear that we are in a much worse position than they are; for e...
Ronnie Nicol
I am afraid that we did not drill into those differences to find out the reasons for them, but we thought that it might at least be of interest to present th...
Mr Black
That is another issue that has emerged from the report to which others will have to provide answers.
Murdo Fraser
Con
I do not know how we are fixed with regard to following up this report, but it is an issue that we could consider.
Mr McAveety
Lab
In much of this discussion it seems that personal testimonies are required. It would be helpful if committee members helped each other in their appeals to lo...
Ronnie Nicol
The figure was provided by professional transport managers, so it reflects their judgment on keeping the roads in an acceptable, usable condition.
Mr McAveety
Lab
What role is there for national direction in the debate, given that despite the publication of a major report little has changed dramatically?The differences...
Ronnie Nicol
I think that such factors are part of what has driven us to recommend that everyone comes together to have a new look at things at a national level. There ha...
George Foulkes
Lab
Please excuse the pun when I say that we seem to keep trying to reinvent the wheel. Lord Wheatley had it right in the early 1970s—
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Is he still in the Lords with you, George?
George Foulkes
Lab
No. I am talking about the late Lord Wheatley. He is no longer there—at least, I did not notice him, anyway.As I recall, the best time for road maintenance w...
Mr Black
Yes.
George Foulkes
Lab
I get the impression—this is not a party-political point in any way—that officials in the Scottish Executive or Government transport department are preoccupi...
Anne McLaughlin
SNP
Would trams fall into that category?
Mr Black
If I may, I would prefer not to respond to the latter part of Mr Foulkes’s comment. On the former part, as some committee members might be aware, I have had ...
George Foulkes
Lab
Of course the one good thing about trams is that they do not create potholes, do they?
The Convener
Lab
We will leave that one for the moment.