Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 09 March 2011
09 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
“Report on preventative spending”
This is an important debate, which is why I am particularly sorry that I will have to leave before the end of it, as I have a meeting regarding my constituency with the Minister for Enterprise, Energy and Tourism. I apologise to you and other members, Presiding Officer.
First and foremost, I agree that any report that brings together Mr Whitton, Mr FitzPatrick and Mr Brownlee must be an impressive piece of work. The fact that I was excluded from that list shows that there is a recognition among all members that I am automatically consensual. It is useful to have that in the Official Report. As the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth rightly says from a sedentary position, that is undisputed.
To maintain the consensual tone, I agree with others’ comments about our convener, Andrew Welsh. I used to work for David Steel. When he stood down from elected office, in his final remarks he said that politics was the highest calling of all. It has been a pleasure for me to have known Andrew Welsh—although I have not known him for as long as other members have. When in this chamber the words “intelligence”, “integrity”, “courteousness” and “considerateness” are mentioned, perhaps we will automatically think of Andrew Welsh. I wish him good fortune, as I am sure that he will continue to support his local community, which he is passionate about. As Derek Brownlee said, this was an appropriate report for him to leave as a legacy for incoming MSPs from all parties.
I will focus on whether the issues that we discussed are deep seated or intractable; whether we have the right aims going forward; whether we have the right mechanisms to deliver on those aims; and, to touch on the issues that Derek Brownlee raised, the need for new ways of thinking.
By the time that we had completed our work, it had become abundantly clear from the evidence that children from the poorest backgrounds who are brighter than those from the richest backgrounds will start to fall behind in schooling and attainment by the age of seven. That is now demonstrable.
In Scotland today there are 600,000 children under the age of 10. If we make no changes but draw a straight line to the outcomes that we expect over the coming decade, we know what social outcomes there will be. We know that of those 600,000, 120,000 will not be in employment and will not be economically active at the age of 19 or 20. They will not have the skills that they need, or which we need as a country and as a society. We also know the number who will be in the criminal justice system and the number who will be starting to have a family, which itself will not have the social outcomes that we want. The problems are deep seated, but we must never say that they are intractable.
This is not a debate about minimum pricing for alcohol, but one of the answers to a parliamentary question that has stuck with me was one that Joe FitzPatrick asked about the average level of morbidity for alcohol-related problems for every constituency in Scotland. My constituency had the lowest level at 30 per cent of the UK average. In fact, it must be one of the lowest levels in the UK. Glasgow Shettleston’s figure was 564 per cent of the UK average. The fact that there is nearly a 600 per cent difference on that one indicator alone shows that there are considerable, deep-seated problems. Given that at a micro level within Glasgow life expectancy varies by 10 years within a radius of 10 miles, we know that there are considerable challenges for Scotland.
I asked the head of social work and the head of education at Glasgow City Council what their 10-year ambition was for reducing the number of children who are currently in vulnerable families, but they did not have one. They simply said that they were striving to meet the Government’s laudable aim of providing children with the best start in life. It struck me that there was a lack of clear, baselined aims for our largest city, which we know faces considerable problems. It is not a case of going back to a target culture; it is a case of looking at what 10-year ambitions it would be right for us to have for Scotland.
That is why our party has indicated that, if we are to radically improve our education and health outcomes and reduce inequalities, it is important that we set a number of 10-year ambitions for where Scotland should be at the end of this decade. If nothing else, that will set the framework for those 600,000 children, while recognising that many of the difficulties that they will face are already starting to be ingrained.
The committee highlighted a number of areas that are challenging not just for the present Government but for all future Governments. In paragraphs 151, 152, 154 and 155 of its report, the committee looked at the way in which the Scottish budget is put together. That is not the fault of the present Government; it is a situation that has evolved since devolution. The committee indicated that we must pause to consider how budgets could be put together differently. In paragraph 151, the committee said:
“there is no indication within the draft budget as to the extent to which spending proposals are preventative.”
In paragraph 152, it said that there was
“a risk that all public spending could potentially be defined as being in some way preventative.”
Social impact bonds are an example of the new ways of thinking. Liberal Democrats are exploring with the voluntary sector what we term outcome-dependent funding, which involves balancing risk and looking at moving away from what we currently do, which is to budget failure, towards identifying how much can be gained for the public purse by meeting those outcomes.
The report is highly significant, and it falls full square in the committee’s legacy paper to our successor committee. I hope that it serves as a legacy to every committee in the Parliament, not just the Finance Committee’s successor after the election in May.
15:17
First and foremost, I agree that any report that brings together Mr Whitton, Mr FitzPatrick and Mr Brownlee must be an impressive piece of work. The fact that I was excluded from that list shows that there is a recognition among all members that I am automatically consensual. It is useful to have that in the Official Report. As the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth rightly says from a sedentary position, that is undisputed.
To maintain the consensual tone, I agree with others’ comments about our convener, Andrew Welsh. I used to work for David Steel. When he stood down from elected office, in his final remarks he said that politics was the highest calling of all. It has been a pleasure for me to have known Andrew Welsh—although I have not known him for as long as other members have. When in this chamber the words “intelligence”, “integrity”, “courteousness” and “considerateness” are mentioned, perhaps we will automatically think of Andrew Welsh. I wish him good fortune, as I am sure that he will continue to support his local community, which he is passionate about. As Derek Brownlee said, this was an appropriate report for him to leave as a legacy for incoming MSPs from all parties.
I will focus on whether the issues that we discussed are deep seated or intractable; whether we have the right aims going forward; whether we have the right mechanisms to deliver on those aims; and, to touch on the issues that Derek Brownlee raised, the need for new ways of thinking.
By the time that we had completed our work, it had become abundantly clear from the evidence that children from the poorest backgrounds who are brighter than those from the richest backgrounds will start to fall behind in schooling and attainment by the age of seven. That is now demonstrable.
In Scotland today there are 600,000 children under the age of 10. If we make no changes but draw a straight line to the outcomes that we expect over the coming decade, we know what social outcomes there will be. We know that of those 600,000, 120,000 will not be in employment and will not be economically active at the age of 19 or 20. They will not have the skills that they need, or which we need as a country and as a society. We also know the number who will be in the criminal justice system and the number who will be starting to have a family, which itself will not have the social outcomes that we want. The problems are deep seated, but we must never say that they are intractable.
This is not a debate about minimum pricing for alcohol, but one of the answers to a parliamentary question that has stuck with me was one that Joe FitzPatrick asked about the average level of morbidity for alcohol-related problems for every constituency in Scotland. My constituency had the lowest level at 30 per cent of the UK average. In fact, it must be one of the lowest levels in the UK. Glasgow Shettleston’s figure was 564 per cent of the UK average. The fact that there is nearly a 600 per cent difference on that one indicator alone shows that there are considerable, deep-seated problems. Given that at a micro level within Glasgow life expectancy varies by 10 years within a radius of 10 miles, we know that there are considerable challenges for Scotland.
I asked the head of social work and the head of education at Glasgow City Council what their 10-year ambition was for reducing the number of children who are currently in vulnerable families, but they did not have one. They simply said that they were striving to meet the Government’s laudable aim of providing children with the best start in life. It struck me that there was a lack of clear, baselined aims for our largest city, which we know faces considerable problems. It is not a case of going back to a target culture; it is a case of looking at what 10-year ambitions it would be right for us to have for Scotland.
That is why our party has indicated that, if we are to radically improve our education and health outcomes and reduce inequalities, it is important that we set a number of 10-year ambitions for where Scotland should be at the end of this decade. If nothing else, that will set the framework for those 600,000 children, while recognising that many of the difficulties that they will face are already starting to be ingrained.
The committee highlighted a number of areas that are challenging not just for the present Government but for all future Governments. In paragraphs 151, 152, 154 and 155 of its report, the committee looked at the way in which the Scottish budget is put together. That is not the fault of the present Government; it is a situation that has evolved since devolution. The committee indicated that we must pause to consider how budgets could be put together differently. In paragraph 151, the committee said:
“there is no indication within the draft budget as to the extent to which spending proposals are preventative.”
In paragraph 152, it said that there was
“a risk that all public spending could potentially be defined as being in some way preventative.”
Social impact bonds are an example of the new ways of thinking. Liberal Democrats are exploring with the voluntary sector what we term outcome-dependent funding, which involves balancing risk and looking at moving away from what we currently do, which is to budget failure, towards identifying how much can be gained for the public purse by meeting those outcomes.
The report is highly significant, and it falls full square in the committee’s legacy paper to our successor committee. I hope that it serves as a legacy to every committee in the Parliament, not just the Finance Committee’s successor after the election in May.
15:17
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-7994, in the name of Andrew Welsh, on the Finance Committee’s “Report on preventative spending”. I call A...
Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP)
SNP
This will be one of the last speeches that I will make as an MSP, and it is my final scheduled contribution as convener of the Parliament’s Finance Committee...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Lab
I know that the debate is supposed to be consensual, but will Andrew Welsh comment on the abolition of the health in pregnancy grant?
Andrew Welsh
SNP
Such questions are better posed elsewhere. I am relaying to Parliament a positive report, rather than the usual negativity that is produced in debates. I say...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
Mr Welsh said that this was his last scheduled appearance in a parliamentary debate as convener of the Finance Committee. As finance secretary, I am always a...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
LD
I heartily endorse the cabinet secretary’s comments, but does he recognise that the committee found it difficult to establish what baseline information on ou...
John Swinney
SNP
Mr Purvis goes on to fascinating and complex ground in all of these areas. With Scotland performs, we have tried to identify a set of indicators that will pr...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to speak for Labour in support of the Finance Committee’s report. I associate myself with the remarks of the cabinet secretary on our convener, ...
Derek Brownlee (South of Scotland) (Con)
Con
I thank the committee clerks, and the witnesses who gave evidence to the inquiry. I also thank Andrew Welsh for his time as convener of the Finance Committee...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
LD
This is an important debate, which is why I am particularly sorry that I will have to leave before the end of it, as I have a meeting regarding my constituen...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As a member of the Finance Committee, I, too, was very pleased to take evidence in the inquiry into preventative spend and to help to compile the report.Ther...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
I start by paying tribute to Andrew Welsh for chairing the Finance Committee in a model, non-partisan way for the past four years, and for the contribution t...
Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee West) (SNP)
SNP
I associate myself with the words of tribute for our convener, Andrew Welsh. As Malcolm Chisholm said, Andrew has always convened the finance committee in an...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lab
I trust that I will not change the tone of the debate too much.I am grateful to have the opportunity to contribute to the debate. As the first person to spea...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD)
LD
As a non-member of the Finance Committee, I thank Andrew Welsh for his contribution to the Parliament, and the committee for its very useful report.The commi...
Jamie Hepburn (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I congratulate the committee on its work on this report. I am not on the committee and have not been intimately involved in the process, but even a rudimenta...
Linda Fabiani
SNP
Not that many.
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
It seems plenty to me. I also gently point out that Mr Welsh had represented Angus for five years before I was born, although I am not sure whether he will t...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Lab
I do not often get excited by the work of the Finance Committee, important though it is. However, its report on preventative spending is excellent, and I com...
Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD)
LD
The debate has been interesting and, by and large, consensual. Like several members who have spoken, but not the majority, I do not serve on the Finance Comm...
Derek Brownlee
Con
Ross Finnie raised an important point about the outcome basis. Although there has been a shift in rhetoric in Parliament about moving towards an outcome basi...
Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lab
I place on record my thanks to Andrew Welsh for his contribution to the Parliament and its workings. I also thank the Finance Committee for its report.Having...
John Swinney
SNP
It is not often that I can follow Mr Kerr in a debate and agree heartily with many of the sentiments that he has expressed. I particularly agree with his sta...
Tom McCabe (Hamilton South) (Lab)
Lab
As others have done, I acknowledge Andrew Welsh’s service. I will not repeat all the plaudits. I simply say to him that he should be proud of his public serv...