Committee
Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee 19 January 2011
19 Jan 2011 · S3 · Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee
Item of business
Public Records (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Tom Shaw
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That goes back to what the record that is being kept is for. What is it designed to do? Is it designed to have just a single purpose—to have something on the record? Alternatively, is it part of the collection of information that will allow an overview to be taken over time of aspects of provision and outcome, which can inform decisions about changing practice or provision?The question is difficult, because a record must be for an individual—such as a former resident—a fairly comprehensive description of what they experienced. I will illustrate that with an example. Some people vividly remember being punished. In its time, such punishment was not necessarily outside the law, but the law required the punishment to be recorded. We were frequently unable to find the punishment books, which would be expected to be part of any backlog or archive that people wanted to keep. That is a very big issue for a former resident, who will ask why the book is not there and what is being covered up, although the reason might be poor practice, carelessness, ineptness or casualness—who knows? Many reasons might apply, but we do not know the reason, because the books are not there.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Whitefield)
Lab
Good morning, and welcome to the second meeting in 2011 of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee. We have received apologies from Christina ...
Lorna Patterson (In Care Survivors Service Scotland)
The in care survivors service Scotland has worked with about 20 per cent of the client group who have accessed their records; we are talking about more than ...
Tom Shaw (Scottish Government Directorate for Health and Social Care Integration)
I echo what Lorna Patterson has said. Five years ago, I was asked to conduct a review of the legislation and provisions that were designed to protect childre...
The Convener
Lab
What was the most important finding of your research? How will the bill address your findings to ensure that the mistakes that we made for that period in tim...
Tom Shaw
One of the key findings was that it is absolutely essential to listen to people, take them seriously and respect them, and to give them the opportunity to sa...
Lorna Patterson
As Tom suggested, a few key points have come out of our experience of helping people to access records from various organisations. When a person is in their ...
The Convener
Lab
Mr Shaw said that you wanted the bill to ensure that the keeping of records is no longer viewed as a bureaucratic chore. That is a rather interesting perspec...
Lorna Patterson
It is a matter of getting home the point about the impact that records can have. When someone is writing or typing something about an individual, that might ...
Tom Shaw
I can fully relate to that concern. The cultural issue is the big problem—it is difficult for legislation to establish a culture in practice, because that is...
Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
The committee’s focus is on deciding whether we need new legislation. You have both made a powerful case this morning as to why you think we should proceed. ...
Tom Shaw
I can talk about problems that we have faced whenever we have tried to get information about records. Our initial inquiries did not even involve asking for r...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
In your opinion, was the situation unsatisfactory in more than half the institutions that you surveyed?
Tom Shaw
Yes—arrangements were unsatisfactory in more than half the institutions.
Elizabeth Smith
Con
I will take up the convener’s point that, although we can have all the legislation in the world, if best practice is not followed, issues can remain. What ne...
Tom Shaw
That goes back to what the record that is being kept is for. What is it designed to do? Is it designed to have just a single purpose—to have something on the...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
I say with respect that that is what happened in the past. I am driving at the fact that, in some people’s opinion—perhaps not yours—more recent legislation ...
Tom Shaw
I argue that the bill will close the circle. It will acknowledge and respect the other Government legislation on what goes into records and on access and own...
Alasdair Allan (Western Isles) (SNP)
SNP
From hearing your evidence, I suspect that committee members will be of one view—that some pretty terrible failures of record keeping have occurred in the pa...
Tom Shaw
As I understand the terms of the bill and the way in which it will operate, if it is implemented, there will be an opportunity for engagement with the provid...
Lorna Patterson
There is an obligation on organisations to keep records that are useful to them, bearing in mind the fact that a person on whom records are kept may come alo...
Alasdair Allan
SNP
The evidence that we have received has shown more consensus on the need to change the law as it relates to your sector, dealing with vulnerable children or a...
Tom Shaw
I very much appreciate your acknowledgement. I am not an expert in every field of public service delivery. However, I understand the bill to be written in ge...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I want to pursue the issue of record keeping in the third sector and in other organisations whose services are contracted to local authorities. We have talke...
Lorna Patterson
The in-care survivors service Scotland is part of the voluntary sector and we cover the whole of Scotland. I would fully support the view that if future fund...
Claire Baker
Lab
Do you want to comment, Mr Shaw?
Tom Shaw
I echo Lorna Patterson’s comments. I understand that the bill would ultimately lead to a records management planning template with associated guidance and a ...
Lorna Patterson
It is really important to have common principles. For example, when I have approached other voluntary sector organisations, there has been great confusion ab...
Claire Baker
Lab
That is helpful.The other issue that the third sector has raised is the definition of “public record”. In a joint submission, children’s charities argued tha...
Lorna Patterson
This is where things become complex. I agree that it would be difficult, challenging, time consuming and costly for organisations to record absolutely everyt...
Tom Shaw
My perspective is that by defining “public record” broadly, you allow for development of an agreed subset of understandings, guidance, practice and indicator...