Chamber
Plenary, 03 Feb 2000
03 Feb 2000 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Sustainable Development
It is a great shame that there are not more people here for the first debate on sustainability in this Parliament.
I welcome the tone and content of Sarah Boyack's presentation. Members will not be surprised that I have certain reservations. I welcome the inclusion of Kevin Dunion, but I hope that he takes a seat near the door of the tent. Sarah Boyack will get the allusion.
I have recently picked up a book—or a summary of it—co-authored by Amory Lovins, the guru of environmental development in the United States. It is possibly one of the most important books since "Das Kapital" and it has a very different way of solving the world's problems, which members will be glad to hear. It is a pity that Tommy Sheridan is not here.
The authors say that the central problem is that we treat the natural world, our atmosphere, rivers, seas, forests, countryside, topsoil and biodiversity as if those were valueless commodities. Because we do not have to pay for natural resources, they are apparently free to be used up. The result is that they are being used up, destroyed or polluted at an alarming rate. I will not depress members with the figures, with which many members will be familiar. This is also the central message of the British Government panel on sustainable development, which published its sixth and final report yesterday. That was very good work from Sir Crispin Tickell.
The authors of "Natural Capitalism" give four principles that we could adopt now. First, we could use scarce resources with radically greater productivity. An example is given of a firm that, by providing services rather than objects, has cut its use of resources by 93 per cent. Production could be shifted into closed loops, in which there is no waste or pollution. As part of a continuous service to their customers, businesses could change from not only selling products to also providing them. We could act to reinvest in restoring, sustaining and expanding the stock of natural capital on which we depend.
I was sad to observe that, apart from Irene McGugan, I am the first person in the debate to mention biodiversity. I underline my support for much of what Irene has said.
Every time it arises, I would like to challenge the old canard that organic farming cannot be productively competitive. When a farmer converts to organic farming, there is a 20 per cent drop in productivity. However, in a 20-year experiment in the United States, which compared organic farming with conventional farming, side by side, on the same pieces of land, the productivity of five crops grown on the organically farmed land was found to be equal to that of the same crops grown using conventional methods.
Until the new national planning policy guidelines have been introduced, I look forward to defending Edinburgh and Lothian green belts against Murray Tosh's philosophy. We need to overhaul the planning system. It may be that we will need a
new definition of green belts and other sites that need protection. Until that time, I can assure those people to whom I have hitherto given my support in this area that they will continue to receive it.
I am sad that Sarah Boyack was unable to call in the A701 for further discussion. The commitment to cross-cutting is admirable, but how powerful is the ministerial group? Can it overrule? Can it initiate? Can it demand evidence or action? How many members of that group are here at this moment?
Jim Wallace has defined sustainability as economic growth, social development and environmental protection—that gives me cause for concern. The environment was left very much until last in that definition, while the end of the commitment to straight economic growth was clearly placed in the conditional tense.
We have to look beyond the borders of our small country. If we are to have a fair and equal world, the west needs to reduce its consumption of the world's resources by up to 90 per cent. At the moment, one billion people live in abject poverty. The message is that a reduction can be achieved. We can make choices that can start to tip economic and social outcomes in a positive direction. It is beginning to happen, because it is a necessity, it is possible and it is practical.
I commend Kenny MacAskill's comments on targeting. We must have targets, because if we do not achieve actual reductions in the consumption of fuel or in the amount of traffic in this country, or a considerable increase in the amount of land that is farmed organically, we will be nowhere near being able to live with the rest of the world with a clear conscience.
I welcome the tone and content of Sarah Boyack's presentation. Members will not be surprised that I have certain reservations. I welcome the inclusion of Kevin Dunion, but I hope that he takes a seat near the door of the tent. Sarah Boyack will get the allusion.
I have recently picked up a book—or a summary of it—co-authored by Amory Lovins, the guru of environmental development in the United States. It is possibly one of the most important books since "Das Kapital" and it has a very different way of solving the world's problems, which members will be glad to hear. It is a pity that Tommy Sheridan is not here.
The authors say that the central problem is that we treat the natural world, our atmosphere, rivers, seas, forests, countryside, topsoil and biodiversity as if those were valueless commodities. Because we do not have to pay for natural resources, they are apparently free to be used up. The result is that they are being used up, destroyed or polluted at an alarming rate. I will not depress members with the figures, with which many members will be familiar. This is also the central message of the British Government panel on sustainable development, which published its sixth and final report yesterday. That was very good work from Sir Crispin Tickell.
The authors of "Natural Capitalism" give four principles that we could adopt now. First, we could use scarce resources with radically greater productivity. An example is given of a firm that, by providing services rather than objects, has cut its use of resources by 93 per cent. Production could be shifted into closed loops, in which there is no waste or pollution. As part of a continuous service to their customers, businesses could change from not only selling products to also providing them. We could act to reinvest in restoring, sustaining and expanding the stock of natural capital on which we depend.
I was sad to observe that, apart from Irene McGugan, I am the first person in the debate to mention biodiversity. I underline my support for much of what Irene has said.
Every time it arises, I would like to challenge the old canard that organic farming cannot be productively competitive. When a farmer converts to organic farming, there is a 20 per cent drop in productivity. However, in a 20-year experiment in the United States, which compared organic farming with conventional farming, side by side, on the same pieces of land, the productivity of five crops grown on the organically farmed land was found to be equal to that of the same crops grown using conventional methods.
Until the new national planning policy guidelines have been introduced, I look forward to defending Edinburgh and Lothian green belts against Murray Tosh's philosophy. We need to overhaul the planning system. It may be that we will need a
new definition of green belts and other sites that need protection. Until that time, I can assure those people to whom I have hitherto given my support in this area that they will continue to receive it.
I am sad that Sarah Boyack was unable to call in the A701 for further discussion. The commitment to cross-cutting is admirable, but how powerful is the ministerial group? Can it overrule? Can it initiate? Can it demand evidence or action? How many members of that group are here at this moment?
Jim Wallace has defined sustainability as economic growth, social development and environmental protection—that gives me cause for concern. The environment was left very much until last in that definition, while the end of the commitment to straight economic growth was clearly placed in the conditional tense.
We have to look beyond the borders of our small country. If we are to have a fair and equal world, the west needs to reduce its consumption of the world's resources by up to 90 per cent. At the moment, one billion people live in abject poverty. The message is that a reduction can be achieved. We can make choices that can start to tip economic and social outcomes in a positive direction. It is beginning to happen, because it is a necessity, it is possible and it is practical.
I commend Kenny MacAskill's comments on targeting. We must have targets, because if we do not achieve actual reductions in the consumption of fuel or in the amount of traffic in this country, or a considerable increase in the amount of land that is farmed organically, we will be nowhere near being able to live with the rest of the world with a clear conscience.
In the same item of business
The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack):
Lab
Environmental and sustainable policies are at the heart of everything that our Executive stands for. In moving this motion, I want to keep sustainable develo...
Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I am grateful for the tenor and spirit of the minister's speech. It may come as a surprise to some in this chamber and elsewhere that I do not seek to take i...
Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I thought at times during Kenny MacAskill's speech that I had strayed into time for reflection or thought for the day. In his generally consensual and constr...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
It is my intention to communicate the thrust of what we are discussing in the ministerial group on sustainable Scotland. I am looking at how we might do that...
Mr Tosh:
Con
I thank the minister for that very positive statement, which allows us to conclude in a tone of considerable, broad agreement. We have only one, limited plan...
Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD):
LD
Today I have found out two things—that rhetoric can be at different levels and that it can be both consensual and aggressive. The contrast between the mornin...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I support the minister. One of the difficulties that I had in preparing for this debate was that the minister is making such rapid progress on all these issu...
Mr MacAskill:
SNP
Can Helen Eadie assure this chamber that fuel prices will not escalate in next month's budget? We may have to face a fuel duty escalator with a different nam...
Helen Eadie:
Lab
We have already announced modifications to the fuel duty escalator, as Kenny MacAskill knows. It will continue to be used to develop public transport, which ...
Mr Tosh:
Con
Coming to a debate on sustainability when we had heard nothing from the minister on planning issues and other issues related to development, it was impossibl...
Helen Eadie:
Lab
Thank you.The magnitude of the work that we have ahead of us is such that, despite the best will of all of us, we have to commit to it absolutely, because ne...
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The Government development strategy document states that "the overall aim of all our policies for rural Scotland is to foster and enable the sustainable deve...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
It is a great shame that there are not more people here for the first debate on sustainability in this Parliament. I welcome the tone and content of Sarah Bo...
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):
Lab
If sustainable development began to rank as a key issue in the late 1990s, it is clear that, as we go into the new millennium, global survival depends on eac...
Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD):
LD
As I came in, I picked up the little booklet "Scotland the sustainable?" and one item caught my eye: "If sustainable development is so sensible, why is more ...
Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I am delighted to contribute to this important debate, which I hope—unlike many debates on subjects such as sustainable development and other environmental m...
Dr Jackson:
Lab
I inquired into why we had only just received the recycling bins and I gather that the contract had to go out to tender. I do not know whether Mr Lochhead wa...
Richard Lochhead:
SNP
Thank you for that intervention. It says quite a lot about the Government's policy. This country has an abundance of natural resources, and hundreds of thous...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
Does Mr Lochhead think that there was a problem with Westminster because it is in London, or because of the political priorities of the Government at the time?
Richard Lochhead:
SNP
Well, both. I am sure that the minister will not be surprised to know that I am about to come on to the difficulty with Westminster. Although the SNP will su...
Sarah Boyack:
Lab
Will Richard Lochhead give way?
Richard Lochhead:
SNP
No, I have already taken two interventions. Surely it would be much more productive and valuable for Scotland to have a seat at the United Nations and to pla...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
Before I call Maureen Macmillan, I should tell Parliament that recycling is a matter for the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body and that the Presiding Off...
Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
I thank John Farquhar Munro for his speech on transport in the Highlands. Perhaps we in the Highlands and Islands have a different perspective on sustainable...
Robin Harper:
Green
Does Maureen Macmillan agree that it is astonishing that the Executive said that the land reform bill had nothing to do with the environment? Does she think ...
Maureen Macmillan:
Lab
I am talking about sustainable development. When communities can own their own land, we will see such development. We are looking for balance. Debates in the...
Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD):
LD
The debate has been very welcome, and many members have made good, fundamental points. I was pleased to hear that the minister's priorities will be to cut wa...
Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I am sure that the member would be as thrilled as I was on a recent visit to Shetland to see the incinerator programme there. All waste from Shetland and mos...
Euan Robson:
LD
I agree with the member. More could also be done to use recycled building waste in construction. I welcome the minister's comments on sustainable travel. She...
Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con):
Con
I had the pleasure of being the inaugural chairman of the Association of Scottish Community Councils. One of the first things that we managed to do, in consu...