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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 02 November 2017

02 Nov 2017 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Inclusive Education
Smith, Liz Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

I very much welcome the opportunity to debate this issue, and I warmly welcome the Scottish Government initiatives that have been announced this afternoon. We would all acknowledge that this is not an easy debate, but nonetheless the issue is of huge significance to families across Scotland, and not just those with vulnerable children.

As the cabinet secretary rightly pointed out, there is a historical context to this issue. Those of us of a certain age remember very well a time when many pupils with very special needs found it very difficult indeed to be seen as deserving of any special focus in their own school, their own local authority or any national Government policy. I am happy to say that we have come a long way since that time, and I take this opportunity to note that supportive inclusion was one of the key attributes of Scottish education flagged up in a report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. It is important that we remember that. I think that we can all agree that inclusion is important for exactly the reasons that the cabinet secretary set out, and we must do all that we can to ensure that inclusion continues to mean pupils having meaningful engagement and experiences in their schools and not just simply being on the roll in a mainstream school. That is a very important difference.

Although a lot of good progress has been made, complexity is increasing, and it is that complexity that is challenging us to revisit the policy. I would argue that the situation has been somewhat complicated by a number of issues. First—the cabinet secretary referred to this himself—especially over the past decade, there has been much better detection of pupils with specific problems and a huge increase in the number of pupils identified as having ASN, including those whose needs are very complex. When the current definition was first used, 98,500 pupils were identified with ASN, but in the past five years, that figure has risen 73 per cent to 170,300. The news about the level of detection is good, but clearly the situation puts additional pressure on our schools.

That said, there are also key issues to address with regard to how effectively accurate data is being collected and then used in the relevant manner. We are very conscious of the widespread variation in the count across different local authorities; for example, in North Lanarkshire, only 6 per cent of the mainstream school population was identified as having ASN while the figure for Aberdeenshire was 35 per cent. What that flags up to me is possible differences in approach, and we might have to look at the issue in much greater detail. After all, the data is obviously crucial to informing policy.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-08558, in the name of John Swinney, on the presumption of mainstreaming.
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
A commitment to and belief in inclusive education have underpinned the approach to education policy and legislation in the Scottish Parliament since 2000. Th...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I very much welcome the opportunity to debate this issue, and I warmly welcome the Scottish Government initiatives that have been announced this afternoon. W...
John Swinney SNP
Just for completeness, on Liz Smith’s analysis of the statistics, does she accept that, within the much expanded number of young people identified with speci...
Liz Smith Con
Yes, I absolutely accept that, and I hope that we can make progress exactly on the accuracy of the data and its relevant application. When the Education and ...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
The cabinet secretary is absolutely right to place today’s consultation in the context of the development of the policy and legislative framework on disabili...
The Minister for Childcare and Early Years (Mark McDonald) SNP
I hear the point that Mr Gray is making, but he will have heard the Deputy First Minister highlight the significant improvement that there has been in outcom...
Iain Gray Lab
That is very much to the credit of our teachers and additional support needs workers who remain in the system. However, we cannot ignore the fact that, as En...
Jenny Gilruth (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) SNP
I remind members that I am the parliamentary liaison officer for the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills. As we have heard, the presumption of mainst...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I apologise to you, Presiding Officer, and to members in the chamber, because I must leave early tonight to catch the evening plane home. Tomorrow, one of t...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
I have a very strong constituency interest in this area, because I am working with a number of families with children of primary school age who are on the au...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
On that final, final, final point, I call Oliver Mundell. 15:22
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
On this occasion, I would have been quite happy to give Bob Doris my six minutes because he is making the same points that I hear about in my constituency ma...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I warmly welcome the opportunity to discuss mainstreaming in education in the chamber this afternoon. It was of course a Labour Scottish Government that intr...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
I am glad to be part of this debate for a number of reasons that will become clear as my speech progresses. I was pleased to hear from the Deputy First Mini...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, you will find this hard to believe, but I started school in 1972—and yes, the years have been kind. I am very fortunate that where we live...
Graeme Dey (Angus South) (SNP) SNP
In March, I led a members’ business debate on the subject of the presumption of mainstreaming, as addressed in the excellent Enable Scotland report “#IncludE...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
Delivering an inclusive educational environmental for all speaks directly to the kind of society that we aspire to be. As other members, including Jenny Gilr...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to be able to take part in the debate, as the presumption of mainstreaming has been a topic that has come up a fair number of times with my cons...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
Thank you very much, Mr Mason. I call Monica Lennon, to be followed by Ruth Maguire. You can have an extra 30 or 40 seconds. Isn’t that exciting? 16:06
Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
You have made my day, Presiding Officer. As many MSPs from across Parliament have, I have been raising concerns with the Scottish Government about the decli...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Ruth Maguire also has a little extra time. 16:13
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP) SNP
The commitment of Parliament to delivering inclusive education is not in doubt. However, as MSPs—and as parents, friends and family members—we are all aware ...
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Deciding the best route for any child through education will always be tough. For every change in educational thought there will always be a question mark ov...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
I support the motion and congratulate the Parliament and all Administrations on the presumption of mainstreaming. All children and young people are entitled...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
There was much in the cabinet secretary’s opening remarks with which we can all agree. He was absolutely right to emphasise the continuity of this Parliament...
John Swinney SNP
That is a big breakthrough. Laughter.
Daniel Johnson Lab
I know. I thought that the cabinet secretary would think so. Labour agrees with and supports much of what is before us today, and we will vote accordingly. ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Michelle Ballantyne to close for the Conservatives. You have a generous nine minutes. 16:39
Michelle Ballantyne (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I refer members to my entry in the register of interests, as I am the former head of service of Stable Life, a charity that works with children and young peo...