Chamber
Plenary, 11 May 2000
11 May 2000 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Telecommunications
I associate myself with all the positive remarks that have been made about the work of the staff on the Transport and the Environment Committee, and I congratulate the committee's convener on bringing this piece of work to fruition. His good luck in being able to launch his report on the same day as the Stewart report's publication has made his conclusions virtually unassailable.
When the committee addressed the issue, it understood perfectly well why the initial approach to developing telecommunications had been through a system of permitted development rights. It was essential to get the industry up and running, to set national standards and to emphasise the rights of the developer at that stage. However, we quickly came to recognise that those rights had been granted at considerable cost.
Evidence to the committee showed that communities throughout the country had been disfranchised and local authorities disempowered by the process. We heard examples of situations in which even the operators of the masts had recognised that mistakes had been made and had repositioned some of them, but not enough to please the people of Coldstream, Glenboig, Kinross and other places that have been mentioned. I could also mention Gullane, from where I had a letter this week, and Bridge of Weir, from where I also had a letter recently. People all over Scotland seem to be protesting about the lack of consideration of amenity in the development of masts and equipment.
When we took evidence, we were careful to take account of the views, authority and expertise of people involved in the planning process. We interviewed officials from COSLA and from councils across the land and asked them to spell out precisely what the prior approval system meant and what the difference was between that and full planning permission.
It quickly became clear that, from the point of view of the people doing the work, there was little difference. They had to do the same paperwork and administration, the same site visits and the same reports. Only two things were substantially different. First, they got a lesser fee, which is significant in a planning system that is supposed to be funded by fees being paid. Secondly, they had to approve the prior approval applications within 42 days or a deemed consent would be given. The officials therefore had to work harder and faster on the applications for which they were not paid than on other applications. The clock was ticking for them.
We also found that, if the applicant did not fully co-operate and did not supply the necessary information, the clock continued to tick. There was no ability to extend the deadline, as is the case with a normal planning application, where officials will say, "We can't process this until you give us the full response." The officials had to process the prior approval applications and had to reach a decision within 42 days, whether the applicant was thoroughly co-operative or not.
The main point that COSLA wanted to make to the committee concerned how prior approval affected the relationship between the planning system and the public. What is wrong with prior approval is that no one understands how it works and no one has any experience of it in Scotland, except in the context of agriculture and forestry. It is an unknown concept in built areas and I do not think that it is a concept that one can ever get across.
What is wrong with it? There is no neighbour notification and people cannot feel that their representations and objections influence the process. There is frustration with the output and with the developments that result from the system. Every planner knows that the anger and indignation of the public will be vented not on the industry and not on the politicians or the Parliament, but on the local authority, which will be blamed for its negligence in handling something over which it has relatively little power.
We asked the City of Edinburgh Council, which covers many conservation areas, where full planning permission is necessary, whether conservation areas were a technological desert from which it had chased the telecommunications industry. The answer was a resounding no. What drives the industry is the money that is to be made from it. The telecommunication companies do not want full planning powers, but if that is the game, they will play by the game. They will adjust to the rules and live by the rules, and the licensing requirements and the money to be made from the process will lead to the industry developing quickly in its third phase throughout Scotland. We have no reason to fear that they will be scared away by the requirement for full planning permission.
Full planning permission will redress the balance; it will give back control to the planning authority and influence and involvement to the people. The situation is over-ripe, and the time has come for us to strike a better balance than that which is in place at present. The Transport and the Environment Committee's report recommends that approach, and I hope that the Executive will agree to implement its proposals.
When the committee addressed the issue, it understood perfectly well why the initial approach to developing telecommunications had been through a system of permitted development rights. It was essential to get the industry up and running, to set national standards and to emphasise the rights of the developer at that stage. However, we quickly came to recognise that those rights had been granted at considerable cost.
Evidence to the committee showed that communities throughout the country had been disfranchised and local authorities disempowered by the process. We heard examples of situations in which even the operators of the masts had recognised that mistakes had been made and had repositioned some of them, but not enough to please the people of Coldstream, Glenboig, Kinross and other places that have been mentioned. I could also mention Gullane, from where I had a letter this week, and Bridge of Weir, from where I also had a letter recently. People all over Scotland seem to be protesting about the lack of consideration of amenity in the development of masts and equipment.
When we took evidence, we were careful to take account of the views, authority and expertise of people involved in the planning process. We interviewed officials from COSLA and from councils across the land and asked them to spell out precisely what the prior approval system meant and what the difference was between that and full planning permission.
It quickly became clear that, from the point of view of the people doing the work, there was little difference. They had to do the same paperwork and administration, the same site visits and the same reports. Only two things were substantially different. First, they got a lesser fee, which is significant in a planning system that is supposed to be funded by fees being paid. Secondly, they had to approve the prior approval applications within 42 days or a deemed consent would be given. The officials therefore had to work harder and faster on the applications for which they were not paid than on other applications. The clock was ticking for them.
We also found that, if the applicant did not fully co-operate and did not supply the necessary information, the clock continued to tick. There was no ability to extend the deadline, as is the case with a normal planning application, where officials will say, "We can't process this until you give us the full response." The officials had to process the prior approval applications and had to reach a decision within 42 days, whether the applicant was thoroughly co-operative or not.
The main point that COSLA wanted to make to the committee concerned how prior approval affected the relationship between the planning system and the public. What is wrong with prior approval is that no one understands how it works and no one has any experience of it in Scotland, except in the context of agriculture and forestry. It is an unknown concept in built areas and I do not think that it is a concept that one can ever get across.
What is wrong with it? There is no neighbour notification and people cannot feel that their representations and objections influence the process. There is frustration with the output and with the developments that result from the system. Every planner knows that the anger and indignation of the public will be vented not on the industry and not on the politicians or the Parliament, but on the local authority, which will be blamed for its negligence in handling something over which it has relatively little power.
We asked the City of Edinburgh Council, which covers many conservation areas, where full planning permission is necessary, whether conservation areas were a technological desert from which it had chased the telecommunications industry. The answer was a resounding no. What drives the industry is the money that is to be made from it. The telecommunication companies do not want full planning powers, but if that is the game, they will play by the game. They will adjust to the rules and live by the rules, and the licensing requirements and the money to be made from the process will lead to the industry developing quickly in its third phase throughout Scotland. We have no reason to fear that they will be scared away by the requirement for full planning permission.
Full planning permission will redress the balance; it will give back control to the planning authority and influence and involvement to the people. The situation is over-ripe, and the time has come for us to strike a better balance than that which is in place at present. The Transport and the Environment Committee's report recommends that approach, and I hope that the Executive will agree to implement its proposals.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-803, in the name of Mr Andy Kerr, on behalf of the Transport and the Environment Committee, on that commi...
Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab):
Lab
I am delighted to open this debate on behalf of the Transport and the Environment Committee. I thank my colleagues for their hard work in producing a thought...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I am pleased to speak in this debate. The first report of the Transport and the Environment Committee is the result of a great deal of investigation. Committ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
I call Nick Johnston to open for the Conservatives. You have eight minutes, Mr Johnston.
Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I will try to keep to my time.I stand here this morning as a warning to every young researcher or putative candidate to Parliament—never lodge a members' bus...
Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD):
LD
I am grateful to Nick Johnston for clarifying the Conservative front-bench situation. For a terrible moment, those of us who enjoy transport and the environm...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
We move to the open part of the debate. Members will have four minutes.
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):
Lab
I am particularly pleased to take part in this debate, as I have been rather vocal on the subject of telecommunications developments since about June last ye...
Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I would like to begin by congratulating the Transport and the Environment Committee on its work and on its report. I think that Andy Kerr did a good job of p...
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome constituents who have travelled to the Parliament from Strathblane and who have been going through an ordeal with a mast in their area. I thank the...
Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD):
LD
I, too, welcome this report, with the important development that it proposes, and the Stewart report that was published today. There will be widespread agree...
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
As a member of the Transport and the Environment Committee, I thank my fellow committee members and the staff of the committee for the tremendous amount of w...
Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab):
Lab
I wonder if Des McNulty would agree that particular attention should be paid to masts near schools. Bruce Crawford shares my concern about the situation in K...
Des McNulty:
Lab
I am sympathetic to that view and that some of the income coming to local authorities in site rental should be used in that way.Monitoring health risks is a ...
Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I associate myself with all the positive remarks that have been made about the work of the staff on the Transport and the Environment Committee, and I congra...
Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the Stewart committee's report, which was published today, and I am pleased to see that it vindicates many of the recommendations in the Transport ...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
First, I apologise to the chamber because I must leave this debate early. I have a ceremony to attend at the University of Edinburgh in which I am playing a ...
Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab):
Lab
I am pleased to be taking part in this debate. I congratulate the Transport and the Environment Committee on a thorough and well-considered report. Telecom m...
Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
Carlops, in my constituency, is one of the most famous of the mobile phone mast episodes, but I do not wish to go into the details of that today as we are in...
Dr Simpson:
Lab
I appreciate what the member is going through. Perhaps I can offer some help. A mast was erected in my constituency. Fortunately, it was close to a B-listed ...
Ian Jenkins:
LD
I really do not want to go into the details because there are aspects of our discussions that might involve trees, or whatever.It seems totally unacceptable ...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I join other members in thanking sincerely the support team led by Lynn Tullis and all those who briefed us in the Transport and the Environment Committee an...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
As a member of the Transport and the Environment Committee, I would like to echo the gratitude of my colleagues to the staff who have helped us through the i...
David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I do not hold myself out to have the same expertise in these matters as my colleague Nick Johnston, but I was previously employed by British Telecommunicatio...
Mr Tosh:
Con
In the light of what Mr Mundell has just said, will he comment on the recommendation in the Stewart report that no one should be encouraged to use mobile tel...
David Mundell:
Con
Mr Tosh raises a very interesting point. If regulations are introduced, they should also apply to the use of car radios, as operating a car radio has been id...
Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
As others such as Des McNulty have done, I put on record my thanks to the members of staff of the Transport and the Environment Committee. In many instances,...
Nick Johnston:
Con
Would Mr MacAskill be gracious enough—in the spirit of consensus that has evolved in the debate—to acknowledge that we are learning from experience, whereas ...
Mr MacAskill:
SNP
I should be happy to acknowledge that the Conservatives are learning from the past, although I would not go beyond that.The most important issue is to decide...
The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack):
Lab
I listened with interest to the many excellent contributions throughout the debate. The debate has been marked by the consistently high quality of those cont...