Committee
Social Security Committee 17 November 2016
17 Nov 2016 · S5 · Social Security Committee
Item of business
Welfare Reforms (Impact on Scotland)
Professor Fothergill
Watch on SPTV
If I had brought a GB-wide presentation, I might have been able to show you a lovely map of where the impacts of the reforms are falling on Britain as a whole. That list of the poorer areas versus the more prosperous areas in Scotland can be writ large across Britain. A large swathe of southern England outside London is relatively lightly affected by the reforms, but across Britain—as in Scotland—the poorest local authorities are hit hardest. That has been rather glossed over by a lot of people, as if welfare reform affects everybody equally. However, it does not work out that way because welfare claimants are in some places rather than others. They do not sit in Theresa May’s constituency or in David Cameron’s old constituency; they sit in Glasgow, in Liverpool or in former mining villages in Yorkshire. Those places are in the firing line and, because more money is suddenly being taken away and welfare benefits are being cut, the reforms add an extra downward twist to local economies that are often struggling for other reasons. There is an amazing coincidence involving the electoral geography of Britain and the impacts of the welfare reforms. The places that escape relatively lightly from the welfare reforms are those from which the Conservative Government in Westminster draws its political support.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Agenda item 2 is a presentation on Sheffield Hallam University research. In June, the committee agreed to commission the university to conduct follow-up rese...
Professor Steve Fothergill (Sheffield Hallam University)
Good morning, colleagues. It is very much a joint piece of work that I am presenting, as you can see from the slides. It has been an effort by me and my clos...
The Convener
SNP
You will know that Scottish people are quite careful with their money.
Professor Fothergill
To continue the tradition, the new report that the committee has today is another example of piggy-backing a piece of work for Scotland on something that has...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. That was such an interesting presentation. I understand that we have you until 10 o’clock.
Professor Fothergill
I would like to sit in the background and listen to the professors, too.
The Convener
SNP
You will be more than welcome. Would you mind taking a couple of questions or hearing some observations?
Professor Fothergill
I would be delighted to.
The Convener
SNP
As you have said, Westminster still has power over 85 per cent of benefit spend, which leaves us with only 15 per cent. As I and others have argued, we would...
Professor Fothergill
I imagine that this will be a rather acute problem for a lot of households. It is not as if there had been no benefit cap before the Government introduced th...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
SNP
It is quite interesting to analyse this issue from an economic as well as a social welfare perspective, and I noted with interest your point about £1 billion...
Professor Fothergill
For the GB as a whole, we are now estimating that, by the time we get to 2020, the whole package that has been introduced since 2010 will take £27 billion a ...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
Exactly. The UK Government analysis does not take into account the potential multiplier effects for the demand in those local economies.
Professor Fothergill
Yes. We did some rough and ready calculations in our GB report on the knock-on consequences for job losses. I would not put too much weight on them, but we a...
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green)
Green
There is an apparent lack of consideration of the impact of the reforms on local economies. The graphic clearly highlights that, and Professor Fothergill sai...
Professor Fothergill
If I had brought a GB-wide presentation, I might have been able to show you a lovely map of where the impacts of the reforms are falling on Britain as a whol...
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con)
Con
You talked about a cut in the overall value of benefits, but not in cash payments. You also indicated that the approach of the reforms is that the ones who w...
Professor Fothergill
In terms of minimising the anger that is felt on the ground, it probably is a more sensitive way to handle things. For example, with the reductions in tax cr...
Gordon Lindhurst
Con
Is it not a way of lessening what might be considered a negative impact on people? The way in which you phrase it is almost a political statement—you talk ab...
Professor Fothergill
I do not think that I was trying to attack the Conservative Government; I was just trying to explain how the system works here. At the end of the day, it is ...
The Convener
SNP
Can I just remind members, as I did the other week, that in this committee we treat everyone with dignity and respect?
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
Thank you, Professor Fothergill, for the presentation, which I thought was very useful. However, would it be fair to say that there was a difference between ...
Professor Fothergill
That takes us into the territory that was covered by one of our previous reports to the Scottish Parliament’s Welfare Reform Committee in the previous sessio...
Adam Tomkins
Con
I have spent 25 years as an academic and I understand that proving causes in social science is incredibly difficult, but we can, nonetheless, see a correlati...
Professor Fothergill
No. We could not find a correlation with employment growth but we could find a correlation with the reduction in the numbers on JSA. The number of jobs in an...
Adam Tomkins
Con
Can I ask another question or are there others who want to come in?
The Convener
SNP
Ruth Maguire wants to come in, and then George Adam.
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you, Professor Fothergill, for your presentation—it was very interesting. I was depressed but not surprised to see that my area, North Ayrshire, is one...
Professor Fothergill
Unfortunately, my simple answer is no. There are probably plenty of other people, including some of the academics you will be talking to later, who have a be...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning. I was interested in the whole presentation but particularly the bit at the end, when you said: “Do not be blinded by the devolution of welfar...