Committee
Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee 02 March 2011
02 Mar 2011 · S3 · Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee
Item of business
Public Records (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I welcome the minister’s lengthy comments because these matters are important, particularly for the voluntary sector and public authorities, which have some concerns about the relationship that we are discussing. In fact, this is all about the relationship between the keeper, the records management plan and the authorities and it is important that we get that balance right.I have to say that I have been quite convinced by the minister’s arguments on all points. For example, the fact that amendment 58, which seeks to remove section 9, would remove not the keeper’s power to issue guidance but authorities’ obligation to have regard to it does not strike me as sensible, so I appreciate the minister’s argument in that respect.As for amendments 39 and 43, which seek to remove the phrase “may determine”, I think that the intention behind them was all about tone and terminology, but the minister has assured the committee that the keeper will take others’ views into account in submitting records management plans. That is the important point. In fact, I was also reassured to hear that the stakeholder forum is now up and working, given the initial concerns about that. I point out, though, that none of my amendments is designed to make the bill any more unwieldy or any more awash with guidance or bureaucracy than it already is, which in itself is quite a strong argument in favour of not being overly explicit about some of the guidance that will be necessary.On amendments 2A, 16A and 17A, the minister said that the keeper would find it difficult to identify the bodies that should be consulted and assured us that amendments 2, 16 and 17 already cover the issue in their use of the phrase“such other persons ... as the Keeper considers appropriate”.However, if I may, I will rethink the matter before stage 3 to ensure that we and the voluntary sector are happy with that.On amendments 31 and 56, the minister has suggested that guidance will already cover contractors’ records. However, we do not wish the keeper to impose duties in that respect; in fact, this is not about imposing such duties or interfering in that relationship. We want to ensure that the relationship is right, but it is not for the keeper to impose one view on all local or public authorities.On that basis, I am happy to seek leave to withdraw amendment 31, not to move my other amendments in the group and to support the Government’s amendments.Amendment 31, by agreement, withdrawn.Amendment 2 moved—Fiona Hyslop.Amendment 2A not moved.Amendment 2 agreed to.Amendment 32 moved—Elizabeth Smith—and agreed to.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Whitefield)
Lab
I open the 7th meeting in 2011 of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee. I remind all those present that mobile phones and BlackBerrys shoul...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 29, in the name of Elizabeth Smith, is grouped with amendments 30, 32, 38, 40 to 42, 44, 5A, 5B, 45, 46 to 48, 7A to 7E, 49 to 54, 57 and 59. I dra...
Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I am pleased to speak to what I consider to be probing amendments. I do so following one or two concerns that I had at stage 1 and the representations that s...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
I speak in support of Elizabeth Smith’s amendments. The key point about the amendments is that they would improve the tone of the bill and strike the right b...
The Minister for Culture and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop)
SNP
I will respond to all the amendments in the group, with the exception of amendment 42, to which I will return later. Elizabeth Smith has made some important ...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
That is very helpful. We are more or less on the same page. As Ken Macintosh said, it is also a matter of tone. I note what the minister said about amendment...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 1, in the name of the minister, is in a group on its own.
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
Amendment 1 addresses the issue of how risk should be taken into account in records management planning. It makes it clear that the assessment of risk is pri...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
I welcome amendment 1. The issue raised concern among all members of the committee and our witnesses at stage 1. Although there might be some concern among t...
The Convener
Lab
Minister, do you wish to wind up?
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
No. I just acknowledge that Ken Macintosh and Claire Baker raised the issue at stage 1. One of the reasons why we lodged amendment 1 was to reconcile matters...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 31, in the name of Ken Macintosh, is grouped with amendments 2, 2A, 36, 39, 43, 56, 16, 16A, 17, 17A, 18 and 58. I draw members’ attention to the p...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
I welcome the amendments that the Government has lodged—amendments 2, 16 and 17—which will ensure that the keeper consults widely. That is something that the...
The Convener
Lab
You are jumping ahead of yourself.
Ken Macintosh
Lab
Indeed.Amendment 58 would remove section 9. The amendment was suggested because that section is seen as being unnecessary because, if we put in a lot of info...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
Section 1 is important and there are a lot of amendments, so I ask members to bear with me. The Government amendments in the group address concerns that the ...
The Convener
Lab
No other member has a comment to make, so I ask the minister whether she has anything further to add.
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
No, convener. I think that I have said enough about that group.
The Convener
Lab
I am very glad to hear that.
Ken Macintosh
Lab
I welcome the minister’s lengthy comments because these matters are important, particularly for the voluntary sector and public authorities, which have some ...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 33, in the name of Elizabeth Smith, is grouped with amendments 3, 34 and 35.
Elizabeth Smith
Con
The amendments in my name are probing amendments, and I have heard the minister’s very helpful comments.Amendments 33 and 34 reflect the similar but not iden...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
Amendment 3, in my name, will help to address voluntary bodies’ concerns that they will have to work with multiple records management plans for the different...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
The minister has already addressed my concerns. We are anxious that when voluntary sector bodies provide common services across different authorities, they d...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
The minister’s clarifications have been helpful. As Ken Macintosh said, it is important that the voluntary sector has that assurance. On the basis that amend...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 37, in the name of Elizabeth Smith, is in a group on its own.
Elizabeth Smith
Con
As things stand, the bill gives a blanket definition of public records which, as I understand it, encompasses all information that is generated by or on beha...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
Amendment 37 seeks to remove a crucial part of the bill and cuts to the heart of the bill, which is about the management of records, not the content of recor...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
I have nothing further to say. The minister’s comments have been helpful.Amendment 37, by agreement, withdrawn.Section 3 agreed to.Section 4—Approval of plan...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 4, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendment 5.